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Bibles, Religion and other uncomfortable topics

401 replies

bloss · 17/06/2002 00:54

Message withdrawn

OP posts:
XAusted · 22/06/2002 20:58

Ionesmum, I was born-again before I was baptised but baptism symbolises that rebirth. And yes, all Christians are born-again but many who call themselves Christians are not.

Was going to add more on my clearly old-fashioned views on sex-before-marriage but am busy playing with two double decker buses and my ds.

oxocube · 22/06/2002 21:12

SohiaAmes, thanks for the reassurance! I thought I was really wierd here !!

XAusted · 22/06/2002 21:40

I realise that it's probably impossible to explain to a non-believer certain Christian ideals. The Bible elevates marriage to the highest human relationship and emphasises that sex is a part of that relationship and is inappropriate elsewhere. All to do with beleiving that husband and wife become one flesh and that the body is a temple of the Holy Spirit. And, of course, if you don't believe the Bible then this makes no more sense than the rest of God's word! (See 1 Cor 2:14 if you're really interested.)

Oxocube, wierdness is a relative concept - everyone's wierd! (Except me, I'm quite normal!!)

Christianity should absolutely NOT become the rule of law (as if it ever could). Christians obey God's law out of love for him, not because he would punish them otherwise.

sis · 22/06/2002 22:25

Aloha, Tinker, SimonHoward etc.. just wanted to add my support to your comments and the views you have expressed on the thread. As an atheist, I just think that religions, in general are all based on the principle that life on earth is a big experiment by a 'God' but no real reason is given for this experiment.

Tinker · 23/06/2002 00:56

Bloss - can I just ask, why were you trying to find god if you were an atheist? Why were you looking for something that you didn't believe existed?

There's loads of other points that you have raised that I need to get back to you on but I'll wait until I am fired up again!

ionesmum · 23/06/2002 16:42

The Christian point of view is that sex without love is pointless. As someone who has experienced both I have to agree.

ionesmum · 23/06/2002 16:56

I think I should add that I'm not being judgemental about anyone here and as has already been said, every point of view should be respected. I am just trying to explain the Christian rules on sex which can seem irrelevant in today's society.

oxocube · 23/06/2002 16:56

Hi, Ionesmum,

Actually, I would agree with you that, for me, sex within a loving relationship ( I mean that in the sense of actually being 'in love' rather than meaning just caring for someone, is much more meaningful. However, it is the concept that sex before marriage is wrong or sinful that I have a problem with. I have much more of a problem with people who use no protection and put themselves and others at risk.

But, as my 7 yr old d.s. frequently maintaines, "its okay to be different" !!

Tinker · 23/06/2002 19:20

Well, I had sex without love and have fantastic little girl! Can't have been pointless!

ScummyMummy · 23/06/2002 19:24

Touche, Tinker! You can't really get more meaningful than that, can you?

ScummyMummy · 23/06/2002 19:35

Touche, Tinker! You can't really get more meaningful than that, can you?

ionesmum · 23/06/2002 19:44

I have to say you have me there, Tinker! Although of course love -the best love in the world - has been the result, so you could say that love was there but in a different way.

ionesmum · 23/06/2002 19:46

Oxocube - I don't think that sex before marrige is sinful either.

Tinker · 23/06/2002 19:46

ionesmum - you could but you know that I wouldn't

jodee · 23/06/2002 19:51

Wow this thread is LONG! I've been too busy at work to add anything more than trivial one-liners on Mumsnet, so have read through all of this with much interest, thanks everyone. I'm afraid I can't remember who has said what exactly, so I'm just going to add my own thoughts generally (which I'm sure won't make sense, ds is screaming blue murder at the mo).

I will also put my head on the block and agree with Bloss and others that homosexuality is wrong, and so is sex before marriage (and yes, I had a major struggle with the second point!) God is not anti-sex - he created it in the first place for our enjoyment as well as procreation, but within certain boundaries. The AIDS aspect has been mentioned, which is relevant to some extent today, but I think the main reason is that God sees the actual sexual act itself as binding, rather than a piece of paper at a man-made religious ceremony. Adam and Eve didn't walk down the aisle and say 'I do', they became 'one flesh' through sexual union. It seems that people are trying to find 'loopholes' in God's word about sex before marriage, when there is no need to look for a verse that says premarital sex is a sin, the Bible is already clear that all sexual immorality is sin.

In a similar manner, many Gays try to justify their homosexuality by stating that Jesus never spoke out about gay sex - he also didn't mention incest or rape, but we know they are wrong, we don't need to be told.

I am certainly not anti-Gay, and no sin is any worse than another, but the Bible is very clear on these subjects.

Must go now and deal with ear-piercing screams from ds!

oxocube · 23/06/2002 20:20

Jodee, re your recent post: "God says all sexual immorality is a sin." Am I correct in presuming that an unrepentant sinner cannot enter Heaven?

jodee · 23/06/2002 23:15

Oxocube, if you mean someone who rejects God, then no, I don't believe they will. At the end of the day, that is the most important thing, not whether they slept with their boyfreind/girlfriend before they were married. As a Christian, I am still imperfect and unfortunately sin in some way every day, but I know that Christ paid the ultimate price for my sins and I am secure in the knowledge that I will see Him in Heaven. But only God himself knows who has or who hasn't rejected him in the end.

ionesmum · 24/06/2002 00:26

jodee - why, if the sexual act in itself is binding in the sight of God, does it matter if they have entered what you rightly describe as a man-made ceremony?

I don't think I'm looking for loopholes in the rules on sex, I just base them on what I feel I know of God. I don't believe that he would stop two people from having a loving relationship just because they are of the same sex. And to link homosexuality with incest and rape could be seen as very offensive.

I once saw a programme where a woman was very distressed because she couldn't get her child baptised because the vicar refused to do it on the grounds that the child was conceived out of wedlock. The presenter asked her if she had repented of her sin. I was furious- why should she "repent" of having a child whom she loved ,like it was something to be ashamed of?

bloss · 24/06/2002 00:38

Message withdrawn

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monkey · 24/06/2002 08:55

I agree, Bloss. Dh says it all the time, and worse, and now ds (under 3) is repeating it

monkey · 24/06/2002 09:00

btw, how do you Christians, married to non-Christians (or non-committed, iykwim)? I find it has a huge impact on my daily life. I feel that weekly mass is ok (more difficult on Holy days, or holidays), but any 'extra curricular' activities imposible. I also find it difficult with the children. Ds popped out with a comment about Jesus, and dh looked stunned/embarrassed/ didn't have a clue how to resspond. And so I was too.

angharad · 24/06/2002 09:04

Re: child not christened because conceived out of wedlock-I've never heard anything like it! I don't want brand of religion that was but I didn't get married until I was 34 wks pregnant, had dispensation to marry non-baptised DH in a registry office, DD was baptised by our priest when she was 7 wks. Nobody asked me to repent, or was remotely critical. There was just a general feeling that we'd done the right thing, at last! If anything my mum got some mild teasing from the priest as she waited to baptise my sister (then 11ms) until my DD was born, as early baptism is normal in R.C. church he said that it was "time to make a little Christian of the little heathen" BUT all very jocular.

ScummyMummy · 24/06/2002 09:50

There's a programme on Radio 4 today that sounds like it might interest people on this thread: It's called "Bigots or Believers" and it's on at 8pm (English time). A few more details here .

CAM · 24/06/2002 10:54

So Jodee and Bloss, if all sex is wrong before marriage, what about people who don't or can't get married because no-one has ever asked them?eg. my sister-in-law who has wanted to get married and have children all her life but none of her long-term boyfriends has ever wanted to. As she is now 50 she won't ever be having children and is very sad about that. But she is in a relationship - are you saying she should not be having and should never have had sex? Isn't it easy to be moralistic when one is in a lovely situation?

ScummyMummy · 24/06/2002 12:11

Good point, CAM. I think it's much easier to have a moralistic outlook- be that religious or otherwise- when life is good and treating us well. We translate luck into morality, concluding that our wellbeing is due to moral probity and the flipside is that we morally frown upon those who aren't quite as lucky, if only by implication. Whereas in fact morals probably have little to do with either situation.

I must say I find objections to ?religious? exclamations dead tedious but I have to go and pick my kids up from nursery now so can?t expand on why! Maybe later.

Jodee, Monkey, Bloss etc- if Hitler and Pol Pot had accepted God into their hearts before death would they get entry into heaven? What about people living in pre-Christian times/countries? If answer 1 is yes and answer 2 is no, isn?t something a bit screwy, to say the least?