Bibles, Religion and other uncomfortable topics

[bloss]

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Aloha - I agree with a lot of what bloss says in her reply to you, and I also answered your question about how a Christian can read the O.T. and still believe in a kind and merciful God in an earlier posting. But I have to ask - if you don't believe in God why do you hate him so much? And do you respect the views of those of us who do?

Xhausted - you asked about universalism and the Atonement. No-one is saved without the Atonement, so it's essential to my belief. As to whether I believe that you can do whatever you like and still be saved, the answer is yes. This is what I mean about universalism not being an easy belief because on the face of it it's unfair, by human standards. However, that does not mean that our behaviour in this life is without its consequences. I still believe that we will all be judged and will have to face ourselves and the ugly things that we have done. But I also believe that there is no sin so great that Jesus cannot bear the burden of it, and no evil so great that, at the end time, it will be able to stand in the face of God's love and reject him.

The reason that I try to live my life by Christian principles isn't so that I will be saved, but out of gratitude to God for what he has done for me and for all the blessings that I have in my life (which I think is the motivation of most Christians, whether they are universalists or not.). And on a practical level, as I said before I've found that I feel so much freer since I've really begun to live out these principles. And to be honest I can't remember a time when I haven't been aware of God's ppresence in my life even when I was deliberately ignoring him.

I hope that this makes sense and isn't too 'me,me,me'.

How can you be angry or hate god if you don't believe in him?

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dimwit - I was also brought up as a church-going Christian, but then realised I didn't really believe. Another church may help, but I can't really advise on that as I didn't really look very hard.

What helped me was reading about humanism which gives you something to believe in, without the guilt and other baggage that many churches seem to require - try The British Humanist Association and see what you think.

This thread is phenomenal, I've just come back after a week's holiday and it's still going strong!!! Dimwit, please don't feel bad about the things you've done in the past - believe me, I've been there as well and no doubt millions of other people have too. I understand what you mean when you say that the only time God was mentioned was once a week at church - I was also raised in a "Christian" home (my mother was a christian, my father believed in God but was not a practising christian). We went to church & Sunday school, my mother would read the bible to me and tell me about Jesus, but most of the time our lives did not centre around God and I saw my parents doing and saying things that were not in line with Christian ideals. So I grew up with a bit of a distorted image of what Christianity was supposed to be. Over the years I've learnt a lot more about what Christianity is all about, and I must say it's been a challenge trying to change the mindset that I was brought up with. I can also relate to you when you say that your mind goes blank when you try to pray or read the bible, and that you can't concentrate on it sometimes... this has happened to me as well. I don't really know why, it bothers me too but I just wanted to let you know that you're not alone. And I also feel a 'separation' if I haven't been to church for a while, so I can really relate to you! I know I tend to be very hard on myself for the things that I've done wrong, perhaps you're like that too. Maybe the problem is guilt, is it possible you feel that God would not accept you? I just know that God would forgive you for whatever you've done if you asked him to, so please don't feel too badly about yourself. With regard to seeking help, maybe you could contact a Christian counsellor or a pastor of another church who may be able to help you with some of your questions? There is one web site I've gone to a few times called the Christian Answers Network, which addresses many of the questions that people are asking today about Christianity. Best wishes Dimwit...

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Dimwit - I've been there too.I agree so much with Liamsmum and bloss. It's hard and it's scarey and it seems thar everyone else is better at being a Christian than you are. But there is no-one more accepting than Jesus Christ. I too had things that I felt were unforgivable, and I also went through a "dry" period where I might have been reading the bus timetable for all the Bible meant to me. My best advice is keep going. It will work out in the end - I prayed a lot and even though it was a slow process things did come together for me. And there are still loads of times when I lose my concentration during the readings or prayers. My favourite website is the Wellsprings site :www.wellsprings.co.uk. Whereabouts are you in the country? I can recommend some people and places that are really helpful in my neck of the woods, and I'd be happy to chat by mail, too: [email protected]. (no, I'm not a bloke, it's dh's address.) And like bloss says it's fine if you don't want to, too. And don't worry, there is no sin that Christ cannot bear nor God forgive - the difficulty is in believing that and so forgiving ourselves. And you're not going to hell, I can promise!

We had a lovely morning. It was dd's baptism. She had a whale of a time and smiled all the way through it. It was so special and she is so loved. I just had to share this with you all.

Tinker- that's my point.

Liamsmum - hope you read my apology (and you had a nice sunny hols!)

Aloha, no offence taken at your post, you raised questions that I used to ask myself. Although I was brought up in a Christian household and accepted Christ as a young teenager, it still took me years to grasp the concept of the Cross - Why did Jesus die? Did he in fact HAVE to die, was that the only way? (Looking back it was probably Satan planting huge seeds of doubt in my mind as to whether I was actually saved or not.) Why couldn't God have found another way, instead of sending his son to be killed - he parted the waves of the Red Sea to save the Israelites from captivity in Egypt, couldn't he have done something similar?

Why couldn't God just have forgiven us? Because God never compromises on his holiness, he must totally and utterly shun sin and in his justice he must punish it and requires payment by the shedding of blood. God just couldn't ignore our sin as if it hadn't happened. But out of his immense love and mercy for all of us he sent his only Son to pay the penalty.

Bloss' story was an excellent example of God's love in sending Jesus to die for us - but if the man in the cell had not accepted the gift of the cheque after the judge had given up everything so he could pay off his debt, he would still be in the cell now. Christ?s death is of no use unless we receive his gift of sacrificial payment for our sins.

And I agree that 2000 years on it may seem strange to sacrifice a child or an animal, but it would have been very significant to the Jews of the day as the shedding of blood was very important through the sacrifice of lambs etc. as an atonement of their sins, but Jesus was the sinless Lamb of God, and he paid the price in full, animal sacrifice was no longer necessary.
If I could list the people I would lay my life down for, it would be fairly short - ds, dh, Mum, brother... but if I had to list people who I would sacrifice my child for, well, it would be non-existent, no-one would come close. But because God loves us so very much, he was willing to do just that - if that doesn't make me grateful to him I don't know what does!

Hi Dimwit, as others have said, there is no sin too big for God to forgive, he sees all sin as the same, whatever we think of it, and because he loves us so very much he sent his Son to pay the price once and for all so we can receive his forgiveness as a free gift from him. I hear what you are saying about prayer, it can be hard, especially if you are thinking that your actions in the past mean God won't listen, but he sees your heart and knows how empty you are feeling and longs to fill that void. I'd also be more than happy to chat, if you should feel like it (I will ask Mumsnet to pass on my email address). Where abouts are you in the country BTW?

Bloss, snap! Phew, I'm sooo glad not to be the only one with a bible gathering dust, and saying a prayer last thing at night is a sure fire way of curing insomnia! (Not that I'm proud of that fact either.) I KNOW I should be switching off the computer and having a quiet time but I always get the urge to check the messageboards one last time!

I've not really taken part in this discussion up to now, but have been following it with real interest. I suppose it's time I nailed my colours to the mast - I'm a Christian too, but I haven't said much as I find it so hard to express in words what I feel about my faith. One of the subjects you study if you do theology is Systematic Theology, but my dh always says I would have to do 'higgeldy-piggledy' theology as I am always getting tied up in knots.
So I cant add anything much to the intellectual discussions here, but I can tell you why I am a Christian.
I accepted Christ at the age of 16, and have had many spiritual and practical crises since, especially as I have suffered from severe depression on several occasions. But I still always come back to Jesus, because there never seems to be any other option - spmething in me KNOWS that it is true, and however much I try I can't reject the sacrifice that was made for me. I can only be grateful, and awed at the love God has for me.
Why do I contine to believe, in the face of personal illness, the awful things that have happened and happen every day in this imperfect world, through the loss of 3 children through miscarriage, having watched my Grandpa, one of the most wonderful men I ever knew, and a great influence on me becoming a Christian, die a horrible slow death from cancer, knowing now that my brother and his wife are facing the loss of their second child as some abnormalities have been detected on the 20 week scan - and these are just the hard things in one life - why do I continue to believe?
Because somehow I know God is there, he has carried me so gently through the difficult times. Because there have been too many answers to prayer for them to be coincidences, because there have been times, far too few, (and that is because of me and my coldness) when I have truly felt the presence of God and known that He is speaking to me. Because I have tried to turn away. and yet something (or should I say Someone) keeps drawing me back.
There are so many things in the world and about faith that I dont understand, that I think I will never understand. Some things are always going to be great mysteries, and there are a lot of things I dont think any of us will understand while we live on this earth. But I do know how well God looks after me and mine in the things I do understand, and so I believe that he can also take care of all the things I don't or can't understand. That is what faith is - in a Christian book I was reading recently the author said 'Faith is beleiving in advance what will only make sense in reverse'.
I have to trust God with my life, and the life of my family - He can look after us all so much better than we can.
Thanks for listening.
Susan

Ionesmum, I did read your apology, thank you - I appreciate it. I meant to acknowledge it last night but forgot for some reason... I didn't have a lot of time and got a bit caught up responding to Dimwit's post. Anyway we did have a nice time on holidays, except for ds getting sick - twice! With regard to this topic, it is such a hard subject because everyone has different thoughts/feelings/beliefs and it's extremely hard to agree on every issue. But I respect the fact that you seem to be fairly open-minded Ionesmum, and I think it's a very important quality to have.

Dimwit, would you believe I was driving along today and I turned on the radio, and a minister was speaking about people who have difficulty concentrating when they pray!!!!! Just thought I had to share it with you. In brief, he made the following points -

1. He said that some people find it hard to pray because there's nothing tangible to pray to, in other words because they can't see, feel or hear God, they give up or don't really try because they wonder if he's really there.
2. His second point was that it may be because we don't really KNOW God. We probably think He is judging or condemning us, when He really wants us to come closer and have a relationship with him. The minister basically said that if we really knew God's word and who He is, then we would be able to approach Him more easily. Lack of knowledge, in other words.
3. He said that much of the problem could be that we don't feel worthy. Like you were saying, people who feel they have sinned a lot may feel unaccepted by God and that it would be useless to try to approach him. So they get into a negative frame of mind and don't even try to pray because they can't accept themselves or what they've done.
4. Lastly he said that we have an enemy (Satan) who tries to distract us and discourage us from getting any closer to God. So you will probably be more vulnerable to being 'attacked' when you try to pray or read the bible, because you are trying to do something positive. Sorry it's been a bit long but I hope it helps a bit Dimwit - I thought it was very conicidental that I heard this on the radio today!!! Maybe it was meant for us.

Make that "coincidental", in the last line...

susanmt - thank you for such moving post.

Thanks you all so much for your words.

i've dusted off my bible.

Time to turn things around and take action!

Thanks for taking the time to think of me and jot that down, Liamsmum, it really made sense.

thanks for your encouragement Bloss and Ionesmum, and everyone - hope I've not left anyone out.

Susanmt, your post really moved me too.

God bless everyone!

Dimwit - I just wanted to say all the best and that I will be praying for you!
lots of love
Susan

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Bloss - I do want to contact you - mailed you on the 9th at that address - didn't you get it? Maybe mumsnet could help? I've re-mailed you a minute or so ago.

Dimwit, so glad you are feeling more confident about things, will also keep praying for you. Take care.

Thank you, Susanmt, that was very encouraging to read.

Sorry, the Wellsprings address is www.wellsprings.org.uk. Well worth checking out.

I've just found out that the other is for a sweetie firm. OOps!

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I thought I would resurrect this thread as there has been so much interest in the FC thread about religion, especially at Christmas. Thought I would get the ball rolling by asking how many different versions there are of Christmas? I know that Divali has just passed, which is the Hindu festival of light, based on the story of a prince rescuing his girl from the eight-headed demon and bringing her back to his kingdom, where all the people lit candles to help them find their way back and to welcome their prince. A Christian Christmas celebrates the birth of Jesus, who is the 'light of the world' and whose birth was announced by angels surrounded by bright light, and a bright star. The Pagans have Christmas Day as their festival of light. And then someone mentioned the Jewish festival of light. So I wonder if all of these festivals are light based?

Northern Hemisphere - shortest days - lightening the darkness - placating the gods - hope for the future - etcetera.

Pagans actually celebrate on the shortest, darkest day, Winter Solstice, Dec 20/21; Christmas being the 25th is pretty close. Channukah is in December but its actual date relates to Yom Kippur, I think, and is linked to the phases of the moon, like Easter (I think). What about Muslims - I know they have Eid at the end of Ramadan, does light come into that at all?

Fairly universal, anyway, Rhubarb!

Pagans dont call it the festival of light either - it is Winter Solstice or Yule. To us it is the celebration of the rebirth of the Sun King (as the days start to get longer again).