Bibles, Religion and other uncomfortable topics

[bloss]

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I think it's a shame when one half of a couple wants to get married and the other half doesn't. The usual excuse is that they just see it as a piece of paper, but if that is the case, why can't they have that piece of paper for the love of their partner? If marriage is so unimportant to them, why not just do it for the sake of their partner, if they know how much it means to them? If they're not ready for marriage then obviously they have not met the right person yet. Sorry, off on a tangent there.

I will confess that I was a virgin when I met my dh. I have never been very promiscuous, and as all my friends were men, I knew how they viewed sex and one-night stands and I did not want to be one of these 'slags, tarts, birds, cheap chicks' and all of the other nasty phrases they used to describe them. I don't find it very respectful to share the most intimate parts of myself with someone I've only just met and who will be out the door the very next morning if not sooner. I've heard casual sex being described as fun, but I don't think I would find it much fun at all, it would be rather meaningless and I would lose a certain amount of self-respect I'm sure.

Mind you, dh did have a number of partners before me, his heart had been broken and he had a very dim view of women and their faithfulness. It took him a long time to trust me, I can remember now how he would ask me if I would come back when I was just going to the toilet! So I don't think having casual sex did him much good either.

Not that I want to come across as being preachy here, everyone has different morals and I know that I am considered 'different' in my views, which is why I would never force them on anyone.

Now that I'm married and have a child, sex is rather rare these days!

Only got time for one point... To all those who think homosexuality is a sin, can I ask these questions. Do you think someone should be stoned to death stoned to death for gathering wood on a Sunday (Numbers), for wearing polycotton clothes (Leviticus)? For cursing your mother or father (Deuteronomy)? For committing adultery, for being a dissolute son, or indeed, a rebellious one? Or do you also believe that if you and your husband have sex during your period you should both be deported (Deuteronomy)? If not, then why pick on the homosexuality issue. The stuff about wearing mixed fabrics is in exactly the same bit of the OT and has exactly the same emphasis. If you believe in that only one of these is a sin, then you must ask yourself if your belief isn't rooted in bigotry instead of pure Bible-believing religion, surely?

Hi Rhubarb,
Just in case I come across as one of the'cheaper chicks', () I would like to clarify that, although I did have sexual relationships before I was married, they were over a time span of 10 years, before I met d.h. and certainly not one night stands (simply not for me). I do not regret them, although some of the relationships were rubbish (as was some of the sex!!) Its all part of life IMO; sometimes it is great and sometimes not so good.

I think an earlier post mentioned that the problem, as I see it, with people who turn to religion later in their lives, is that perhaps they have done all the "fun stuff", for want of a better expression, when they were younger. Is religion not, in some way, a let out for those who feel guilty about their past?

Don't you think that "some" religions encapture those who are feeling low about themselves at certain points of their lives? And in theory brainwash some people? I really cannot fathom out how on earth someone can be a Born Again Christian you're either a christian or you are not, and if you are, you don't have to make various quotes from the bible and tell everyone that you are. I am not making a point against ANYONE here, just conversations I have overheard recently and in the past, from people who are meant to be Christians, but condem people who are not married and living together, and heaven forbid have had children together, and talk about these families and single parents as if they should be sent to eternal dammnation.

I thought that being a Christian was not condeming or judging the way that others chose to live or live their lives. My mother married for "ever", but my father did not, my mum is a practising Christian I am on the other hand not, don't see the point in it, or telling my chidren they should be as well, although DD goes to sunday school on the odd ocassion with her friend.

oxocube - if faith does heal guilt is that so wrong? Surely it's better than letting it fester.

Rhubarb - I really don't like the sound of your male friends! I'd ditch the nasty misogynists sharpish. I had one four year relationship and one five year relationship - both with men I slept with on the first proper date. And no2 wanted to marry me - even bought a stonking great ring from Tiffany. So much for regarding me as slag!! Oh, and I slept with dh on our first date too, and he still seems pretty respectful (not to mention grateful!). You see, I believe in chemistry and knowing when you've met someone who really attracts you (which is pretty rare). I couldn't possibly regret my other relationships - they were fantastic and I had some wonderful, unforgettable times.

I am amazed that people are feeling they have to justify what are absolutely normal lives in the post-pill, post-feminism, 21st century. I have been equally cynical and romantic in my life and neither has had much to do with religion.

I agree, but I suppose what I was saying is that not all men think the way Rhubarb's friends do. Far from it.

Aloha,

SNAP! I, too, slept with d.h. on our first date. 3 dates later we decided to get married. Both were good decisions. 14 yrs on, we are still married and still sleeping together

No regrets.

Jodee - how on earth could you equate homosexuality with incest or rape? Also the Bible does not condemn incest - it praises it! There is a OT reference to someone marrying his half-sister (will look up ref to prove it) and he is a very holy man. Also rape is OK, and murder, provided the victims are heathens. I do think looking to the OT for moral guidance is a very dodgy business. I am very interested as to why of all the mad but detailed and specific rules in the OT, the homosexuality issue is the one so many Christians like best and quote most. How can this be other than bigotry?

Jodee - how on earth could you equate homosexuality with incest or rape? Also the Bible does not condemn incest - it praises it! There is a OT reference to someone marrying his half-sister (will look up ref to prove it) and he is a very holy man. Also rape is OK, and murder, provided the victims are heathens. I do think looking to the OT for moral guidance is a very dodgy business. I am very interested as to why of all the mad but detailed and specific rules in the OT, the homosexuality issue is the one so many Christians like best and quote most. How can this be other than bigotry?

Jodee - how on earth could you equate homosexuality with incest or rape? Also the Bible does not condemn incest - it praises it! There is a OT reference to someone marrying his half-sister (will look up ref to prove it) and he is a very holy man. Also rape is OK, and murder, provided the victims are heathens. I do think looking to the OT for moral guidance is a very dodgy business. I am very interested as to why of all the mad but detailed and specific rules in the OT, the homosexuality issue is the one so many Christians like best and quote most. How can this be other than bigotry?

Abraham marries Sara, his sister. And God blesses the union. Also, in Numbers Moses orders the killing of the Midianites but tells his thugs to reserve the virgins for themselves. Nice.

Aloha, which version of the Bible are you referring to? I hate to be pedantic but Sarah was not Abraham's sister! They did pretend to be brother and sister when they went to Egypt to escape famine so that the Egyptians would not kill Abraham. (At that time, they were still known as Abram and Sarai.) See Genesis 12:10 onwards.

Tigger2, you're quite right, you're either a Christian or you're not. However, many people use the phrase "born-again Christian" to differentiate between those who are "C of E" and go to church for Christenings, Weddings and Christmas and those who are actually committed followers of Jesus.

And yes, nobody has the right to judge another person. The Bible tells us that we will be judged by the same standards that we use to judge others. So I do my best not to judge anyone: my unmarried sister who has two children, the young men I've worked with who have drug habits or the gay couple at the florist's. It is for God to judge.

Btw, I'm interested to know why non-Christians have their babies baptised/Christened.

Neither of my children have been baptised as I believe that baptism should be for adults (or at least, mature young people) by total immersion but that's another arguement entirely ...

Sex arguement isn't getting anywhere is it? Simplest answer I can think of is that you have to look at the Bible as a whole, OT and NT. When Jesus died, the need for certain rituals passed away. However, certain things are still warned against in the NT and I'm afraid homosexuality is one of them. But Jesus certainly didn't recommend stoning anyone.

This thread is so scary! for me at least, but there we are!

To answer Xausted question about non-christians getting their children baptised, well my SIL did to get her son into the right playgroup, then school.

Hope that helps!

Genesis 20.12 'And yet indeed she is my sister. She is the daughter of my father.'

What bit of the NT do you quote on homosexuality?

Xhausted, I'm sure Jesus must not have met any estate agents or he would surely have recommended stoning, or even something far worse.

monkey - you asked how believers with less-committed other halves get on. Dh had never set foot in church until he met me, although he has always believed in God. He has always been willing to change our plans/work around services so that I can get to church. For a while I really felt it that he did'nt come with me, mainly because I wanted to be able to discuss things with him when I got home. However, I just left it and now he has started coming to the family services of his own accord. Now that we have dd this means even more to me. It helps that we have a great priest who drinks in the local - someone dh can relate to! Dh has also supported me through my studies and when I had an interview with the local ordination advisor. We are having dd baptised at the family service in 2 week's time and I am so looking forward to it.

Genesis 20.12 'And yet indeed she is my sister. She is the daughter of my father.'

What bit of the NT do you quote on homosexuality?

I imagine you will quote St Paul and describe homosexuality as unnatural. But I would absolutely love to know what unnatural means in the is context.

Anyway, I can't understand why people would worship a bigot God. Surely to worship something you must think it is pretty wonderful, and bigotry is horrible.

aloha - I think you've hit the nail on the head. Why state homosexuality is wrong if you don't believe that yourself? If you had no problem with it but decided it was wrong because your god had decreed it, surely you would need to ask yourself what kind of god it is you're worshipping.

Thanks Tinker, you've really encapsulted the point I think I've been trying to make all along. This God is so cruel, capricious and bigoted, how could he be worthy of worship? Fear and dread maybe, but worship? Heaven seems an awfully bleak place to me, and none of my friends would be there..

PS Still can't work out why people think God and Jesus are so very different, when they are supposed to be the same person

PPS stopped posting for a while as I felt I might be dragging this debate on past its sell-by date. Amazed to find it still going!

Ionesmum/Aloha, I'm sorry you found my mention of homosexuality, incest and rape in the same breath offensive, that really wasn't my intention. I was trying to say that just because Jesus didn't speak out specifically on a particular issue, that that somehow means He condones that issue. And I certainly don't equate them, one is a sex act between 2 consenting adults (still wrong in God's eyes though) and the other 2 are extreme violations against the will of another person.

Aloha, I'm not sure where you got the idea from that I'm looking to the OT for moral guidance; in the NT, 1Cor ch 6 v9-11 says that homosexual offenders will not inherit the kingdom of God. You say that the homosexuality issue is the one so many Christians like best and quote most - homosexuality is just one small part of those verses, the main point being (quote) 'the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God'. It then mentions in that context adulterers, thieves, drunkards etc. The passage finishes by saying (quote) 'And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God'. As I said in my previous posting, God does not regard any sin to be any greater or less than another. I don't like the implication that I'm a bigot, when I have plenty of gay friends. Jesus said to love your neighbour as yourself; I try my best to live by that standard.

But as Bloss again said, these things are just symptoms of the wider problem - a rejection of God.

Aloha, you went back to the OT again about stoning to death for adultery - have a look at John 8 to see what Jesus said.

Tigger, far be it for me to condemn a person for the way they live their life, when Jesus didn't (see John 8 also).

Scummy, I would certainly do a double-take if I saw Hitler walking along the High Street in Heaven! But accepting Christ is more than just reciting a few words about knowing that you are a sinner, acknowledging Jesus' death on the cross and inviting Him into your heart. Everyone could do that and be saved, then, surely? The words are important, but vital is the sincerity of heart and only God can see what is on a person's heart. As I said before, God sees all sin to be the same, no matter how big or small, and a murderer, if sincere in his convictions, is entitled to God's forgiveness, whether it is one murder or genocide. King David was much beloved by God yet he had someone murdered, and received God's forgiveness.

Now to bed!