Bibles, Religion and other uncomfortable topics

[bloss]

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Bloss I am really enjoying your thoughtful and eloquent posts, and everyone else's too.
This thread is fascinating and stirring up a lot of old thoughts and debates for me. I am reminded of an observation I made many years ago. I have never come across someone who professed to be an atheist who has really looked deeply into the evidence for and against Christianity.I am NOT saying if an atheist DID look deeply into it they would necessarlily comedown on the side of believing, I am merely commenting that all the atheists I have ever met have NOT researched the topic thoroughly.....except Bloss,who has blown away my theory and look what happened to her!
Bloss you asked a while back about what it was like to be brought up in the brethren. Pretty normal really except that we did go to church and awful lot! The church itself was slightly odd in comparison to other churches...no mnister, instead ,a board of elders who ran the show. We had a communion service every week, which had a kind of free for all format - someone might getup and say a prayer, someone else might them get up and read a few verses from the bible, someone else might suggest we sing a particular hymn, etc.
All the women wore hats.
It is essentially a bible believing church with a big emphasis on salvation ( getting "saved" )and they support adult baptism. Many of the church premises have a baptisimal tank under the pulpit area.
For some reason I have never been able to fathom, the brethren are fantastic home bakers. The spread at a brethren funeral has to be seen to be believed!
Nowadays a lot of the older brethren churches ( or "assemblies" as they are known)have lightened up a bit and are very similar to, say, the Baptist church.Many of the members, particularly the older ones , have an absolutely incredible depth of biblical knowledge.

"As an atheist I ... didn't have to worry about the presence of suffering in the world. "

Er... why? I don't think worrying about the presence of suffering in the world is the sole perogative of christians.

My father was never a church goer and when he died, his wish was that a member of the Brethren in our area would inter him. This man has been known to our family for many years and was a farmer like my father, to my own mind this man led an excellent sermon, he talked about my dads life, saying that "It is now Toms turn to return to the Shepherd and his flock,time for him to hang up his stickand let someone else tend his flock", this is very upsetting for me right now as I always get weepy when talking about my dad, strange really he has been dead for nearly 8 years now. My point is really that member of the Brethren who conducted my fathers funeral, was a very informative and straight talking man, who had in the past had done his fair share of living it up. This many also conducted my grandfathers service in 1981, I have friends who go to Brethren gatherings, and I find that they are less judgemental than some of those who sit in front of the minister many a sunday. I am not making judgements about all people here, just the ones I have met, in our area, because unless you go the church at least twice a week then you are condemned to total dammnation, and an eternity in Hell.

Rhubarb

What I said was 'What I do have a problem with are the rules that I see as being either stupid or of no real use in modern day society'.

Such as the rules on divorce (I would never have met my DW otherwise), the rules on sex before marriage (that is one of the most stupid ones I have ever heard of) and the one about obeying (which I belive has been fully dicussed earlier).

If a religion cannot grow and change with the times to be totally meaningful to the majority of the population of that time and make sense in the circumstances that they find themselves in then I believe it is heading the way of the Dodo and quiet rightly so.

I have just read through this whole thread when I should be in bed banking up sleep for my night shift tonight. I am totally exhausted !

Simonhoward mentioned a book miles back on this thread called Mission by Patrick Tilley. I read it years ago and, although it was based on an alien viewpoint, I found it thought provoking and it made me relook at the bible. I think I will reread it.

I am amazed at how many people have been dipping into their bibles to throw quotes at each other, believers and non-believers. Does every household have a bible of some description? That in itself speakes volumes.

As far as God is concerned I am quite happy that I have my own beliefs and do not feel the need to read the scriptures and 'know' all there is to know in the bible, whatever version. I do not need to attend church on a regular basis although I feel a bit righteous when I have actually got there. I feel secure that there is a God out there and I have private sessions with him. I don't hear him speak but feel he hears me. I believe that I am a good person and that God will be there for me when I die.

My 'born again Christian' sister tells me that if I truly believed I would be at Church every week, more than once on a Sunday and I would be out there converting as many people as I could. She syas unless I do so I will not go to heaven. I am not in agreement with her point of view but let her get on with it if that is what she believes.

I did go to bible lessons prior to confirmation in the Episcopalian church. On the discussion regarding Heaven I felt the minister made a good analogy. He said that dying and going to heaven is moving from one existance to another, in the same way that a baby has a different existance in the womb. The baby was is not aware of what life will be like outside the womb. After delivery the baby has moved onto another type of existance, living in a different way. Dying and going to heaven is similar - we do not know what the existance will be but we will move onto heaven, whatever that is.

I am happy with that thought. I do not need to know the why and the wherefors because we mortal humans do not know. As has been said before it is not religion that is wrong - it is the people who manipulate it to their own ends who are wrong.

Religious arguments are destructive unless all involved accept the views of others.

I also know that when most people are up against the wall they will admit praying to God. When my ds no.2 was diagnosed with meningitis at 6 months and we were told he could die - we would only know if he made it through the next 48 hours- I prayed very hard. It helped me cope. People could argue that he would have survived anyway but it was a comfort to me believing that God is there somewhere.

Bloss

I wouldn't describe this thread as tiring.

Mentally stimulating would be my description of it.

It has been a long time since I have been able to have a good religious discussion with a group of people as wide a set of views as this and it has started to answer some of the questions I have been asking for almost 20 years.

I still don't feel swayed by the arguements as to why people should believe in god or that we should even believe that there is a god but I now understand a bit better why other people do.

I would like to say thank you all for this and for putting up with me asking what might seem to be dumb or odd questions.

I may not agree with other peoples beliefs here but at least people have them and are willing to defend them, which is a lot more then most people I know are willing to do.

Mears you make some good points. I was thinking that there is a lot of negative stuff being thrown around on this thread, including scriptures, and there is so much more in the bible that is good and positive. Maybe it would help to also look at the wonderful and beautiful promises in God's word. They've given me so much comfort over the years and sometimes I think it's people's testimonies that lead others to God, not necessarily the 'theology' involved. This is one of my favourite scriptures, it's been very significant to me: "Fear not, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by name; you are mine. When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; and when you pass through the rivers, they will not sweep over you. When you walk through the fire, you will not be burned; the flames will not set you ablaze. For I am the Lord your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Saviour; I give Egypt for your ransom, Cush and Seba in your stead. Since you are precious and honoured in my sight, and because I love you, I will give men in exchange for you, and people in exchange for your life. Do not be afraid, for I am with you.." This is what it means to have God on your side, and there are many, many more scriptures like this. Another one I love is - "For I know the plans I have for you?, declares the Lord, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you. You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. I will be found by you", declares the Lord, "and will bring you back from captivity." I have had my prayers answered many times, and some of the things that have happened as a result of prayer are nothing short of amazing because they were impossible situations. Like Bloss I have also had times of questioning, but I too am convinced of the reality of God. Anyway, just some thoughts... might get to the end of this thread one day!!

Blimey, it is compelling isn't it? I think the thing about God revealing himself is a bit of a red herring, to be honest, though I must say, having a go all that time ago and not a peep since seems a bit strange even in theory. I am sorry you find my comments about god being horrible offensive, but that is very much how he seems to me. Did you read my earlier posts as to why this is? He does awful things to people and makes cruel and unfair laws and then punishes people with eternal damnation if they fail to keep them. I also love the poetry of the bible - it was written by some great poets at a time when English poety was particularly beautiful and moving and the passage you quote is a lovely poem. I am baffled by the huge difference in people's minds between Jesus and God. I thought the whole point is that they are the same? I said earlier that Jesus on the whole seemed a good person with many good points to make about life on earth and the value of people. I see very little in common with the terrible jealous God of the OT. I don't think they were related!

Aloha - many people on here have given examples of OTT christians who like to preach hell and damnation for simply not going to church. This is how the OT was. God did use certain people to spread his word, but God's word got mixed up with their overblown opinions of themselves and predjudices of others, so when Jesus came, he clarified everything once and for all. You must remember that the prophets were ordinary people and prone to sin as much as we are.

Again I will quote Jesus when he had this to say "For there are different reasons why men cannot marry; some, because they were born that way, others because men made them that way; and others do not marry for the sake of the Kingdom of God" (Matthew 19:11) So if Leviticus, which is one of the earliest parts of the Bible, comes across as a homophobe he probably is, but that does not mean to say that God is.

Simon - some "rules", although I still prefer to call them guidelines as you have a choice whether to follow them or not, may seem stupid. But for instance sex before marriage, whist I did not practice it, prevents promiscuity. The Bible has always held that sex is sacred and an act that should only be performed by a man and wife and it is essentially a conception act. It also promotes a love of oneself, respect for our own bodies. You may not agree, but in an ideal world it would be lovely. That is what God wants for us, an ideal world.

Goodness me, I bet I sound like a real Bible basher now! Just to add some light to this, here's a site you OT quoters might like www.armegalo.co.uk/flash/wrath.swf. You can play at being God and zap your people - very appropriate!

Rhubarb

In an ideal world we wouldn't need to have religions as everyone would do what was needed when it was needed.

No one would be horrible, nasty or evil.

We would all eat well and enjoy life.

Isn't true communism a great thing.

SimonHoward - I sugges tthat you look at Acts 2v 44-45 for a potted version of the Communist Manifesto.

The rule on adultery is there to protect people from the pain of divorce and infidelity. Of course some marriages have to break up but it seems that many do uneccesarliy, because one party cannot forgive the other's infidelity. Karl Barth, writing in the 1930's, said that those of us who marry have a vocation to be married to a particular person. So if God did not intend you to be married to a particular person then you were not really married even if you had had a religious ceremony; on the other hand, if you had a civil ceremony or were living together and God intended you to be together then you were married in his eyes regardless. Quite radical considering when it was written. Unfortuately he then undoes all his good work by coming out with stuff about how by being obedient to her husband a woman is showing him how to be obedient to God! Sex before marriage is the sin of fornication which, according to my priest, was done away with in the 1930's (calling it a sin, I mean, not the fornication). However, it does make sense to wait as to who you have sex with because sex is a gift from God like any other, as well as it being a safeguard against promiscuity as Rhubarb says.

All the stuff about women being obedient to their husband and homosexuals in the N.T.is mostly written by St.Paul. There are several thoughts as to how his words should be taken:

1. His words come from God and should be taken as such absolutely;
2. He is chosen by God and much of his writing is divinely inspired,but being human he allows his own prejudices to come through;
3. Paul didn't want to rock the boat any further by promoting women and gays and was simply trying to keep on the good side of the authorities;
4. It's all been mis-interpreted and we've all got Paul wrong;
5. It's all rubbish so who cares?

I basically think that Paul was a good man who had his flaws like any other. To get a real insight into the message that Paul really brings read 1Corinthians 13 v 4-7.

Incidentally, the parts on obedience always get a hollow laugh from dh.

Liamsmum - I love that scripture too,Have you heard the David Adam cd "The Eye of the Eagle"?

Mears - I don't know how your sister can get God so wrong.

Star

I'm dead serious.

If true communism was possible then I'd be all for it but unfortunately the moment you apply it to humans it falls apart due to the minotirty that either don't want to be nice or that like being helped but not helping others.

SimonHoward and my husband as well!!!!

Coo, this is a long one! I didn't discover it till last night and I had to print it out to read it so I could carry it around with me. 66 pages! Well done bloss and aloha for some well argued points!

I'm one of those tiresome born-again Christians and it's been very enjoyable reading all these arguements and a good incentive to delve into the bible.

Actually, bloss, I don't believe that God is humble. He has no need to be, he is God, after all. However, in his time on earth, Jesus showed humility.

Soupdragon (and others), I think that God does know what will happen to each of us. He is outside of time and sees the beginning, the middle and the end. This does not, however, mean that we cannot change our own destiny.

And, Soupdragon, the commandment does not say that we should not worship "false" idols. It says you shall have NO other gods and you shall not make an idol ... (exodus 20 v 3 onwards). Therefore, there is no such thing as a valid idol - they are all false.

Aloha, some of your arguements have been really good but comparing Christianity to believing in the tooth fairy and claiming that they have the same basis in reality is a little odd, methinks.

Re people being different but equal: of course black people and white people are different. Just as Scots and English people differ, French and Germans differ, etc. Brazilians are different too ... they're better at football than most other races. This doesn't mean that any race is superior.

I don't know how much I submit to my dh (I'm sure he could give you an answer!. But bells2, if my husband were a selfish irresponsible idiot then I would not submit to him. Husbands have biblical standards to keep to as well.

Aloha, genes might mutate and we are getting taller (although maybe because we're better fed?0 but what we don't see is one species mutating into another which is what the theory of evolution suggests. When did you last see a fish taking a walk or a reptile growing hair? And how come nobody's found the missing link?

Rhubarb. Good points! But I would like to add that God has not left us alone for a while - he is with us through the Holy Spirit.

Aloha, Moses did not see the face of God. See Exodus 33 v 18 to 23. Haven't got time to look up references for Abram/Abraham at the mo.

SimonHoward, I appreciate that the "rules" on sex before marriage are difficult for non-Christians. However, I don't think you can dismiss them as stupid. Think how the spread of Aids would be restricted if not for non-marital sex. Also, if sex was kept for marriage, there wouldn't be so many teenage pregnancies, fatherless children, etc, etc.

Rhubarb, just want to point out that Leviticus was written by Moses, not a bloke called Leviticus as your posting of yesterday afternoon implies.

Finally, for all those who think that Christians preach too much, you may be right! Francis of Assissi said something like "Go and preach the Gospel - use words if you have to", ie, actions speak louder than words!

PS - hope you haven't all got bored of this thread and gone away ...

XAusted

Aids and unwanted pregnancies can be kept down or eradicated by using condoms. If people want to use protection, of any sort, then why shouldn't they be allowed to have sex?

I can understand that rule in a society where there are no such things available but we have them so the rule for no sex before marriage is still stupid in my eyes.

It is as I said previously, a religion has to grow and adapt. We do not live in the same times as even our grandparents did and the rules/guidelines that were laid down in the Bible have not changed in about 2000 years. Some people may have interpreted them slightly differently over the years but the basics are still the same. If the Christian faith, and other faiths as well, do not become more relevant to the majority of people that they are trying to reach they will fail, maybe not now but in the end it will as more and more people cannot see why it makes any difference to them and their lives.

The only other way is for Christianity to go the way of Islam and become the rule of law as well as the rule of religion. We have seen what that does and I would be off to a distant island somewhere if the UK became a religious state.

SimonHoward

It's a nice idea that condoms stop the spread of AIDS and other diseases but unfortunately life isn't like that. My mum works for an AIDS charity and she said that one of the main reasons for the rise in new cases is because young poeple think that it won't happen to them. Also, thinking that sleeping around doesn't have consequences causes great unhappiness. I give you the example of my charming bil - his idea of a good night out is to go to a club, get plastered and pick up some equally drunk girl for a quickie round the back of McDonalds'. He has three kids by three different women (although from what I've just said there may be more) and none of them recieve any support from him. There's usually a steady girlfriend around to be damaged by him, too.

Even if he were using protection all the time, he's damaging himself. He's never learned that great sex is making love and his life is empty. Which probably accounts for his suicide bid.

As I said before, sex before marriage ("fornication" is no longer regarded as a sin in the same way as adultery is. I lved with dh before we were married and at no time did I feel that we were committing a sin. As I also said before, if love is present then God is present, and he sees what is in a person's heart. I have the greatest respect for those who wait until marriage before having sex but did not feel that it was necessary for me.

I suppose what I am trying to say is that the rules about sex are there to prevent my bil's attitude from being the norm. Incidentally, I hope that the impression isn't being given that AIDS is somehow being caused by God. It's simply a case of cause and effect and is no different from the fact that if I keep on eating too much chocolate I could end up with clogged arteries.

One more thing - all Christians are "born-again" at the moment of their baptism.

Oops! I didn't intend the wink! Although it's in a rather appropriate place, don't you think?

Hi, Ionesmum and others,
I have just read this recent message and feel compelled to comment. I have been married/living with husband for many years (14 to be precise) and in all that time, I have NEVER been unfaithful. I can honestly say, I have never wanted to be. BUT, I see nothing wrong in sex before marriage, or in sex beacuse sex is great. I should add that I feel that protection is obligatory IMO, both re. contracepion and re. protection against disease, and that to ignore this fact is both stupid and immoral.

Everyone is different. Not everyone is willing/able to see sex only as an act of love between a couple with a long term future. Am I the only mum to feel this way? I have no wish to go back to that kind of scene now, but do all the mums on mumsnet see sex as purely an act of love between comitted couples? Am I the only mum here who experimented/had fun (responsibly!) with no thought of settling down when in teens/early twenties?

God, this is such a can of worms, its probably not worth posting. And I should add that I completely respect anyone who has views contrary to this.

Apologise for the use of 'God' in last sentence. Did not in any way mean to be irreverent or blasphemous, esp. given the title of this thread.

Apologise for the use of 'God' in last sentence. Did not in any way mean to be irreverent or blasphemous, esp. given the title of this thread.

Doublepost! sorry (again!)

Oxocube, believe me you are not the only one. I believe in getting married forever (unfortunately my first husband didn't) and being faithful in a committed relationship. However, when not married and not in a relationship I believe in lots and lots of sex (with lots and lots of condoms).