Bibles, Religion and other uncomfortable topics

[bloss]

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No-one is a jerk. Your beliefs are important to you, so of course you want to share them. It is up to us to accept your beliefs just as we expect you to accept ours. Don't leave the thread, as someone said, this is a sensitive issue and people will get riled about it, that's because we hold our beliefs so close to our hearts and feel that we must defend them at all costs. Your opinions on here matter just as much, you do make valued contributions, so just hang on in there

I always though that the first translation of the Bible into English was by William Tyndale - the Authorized version was much later.

Okay, I have thought long and hard before writing this but as a Christian I hate the idea that I am "saved" and others less enlightened than myself are condemned to hell, regardless of whether they lead good lives or the traumas that they have faced which has led them to conclude- wrongly - that there is no God, or that he allows suffering. God's love is so huge that there is no-one outside it, no-one who will not be saved by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. To think otherwise either cuts God down to size or dismisses any notion of a loving and merciful Father.

I use both the King James version and the NIV for general reading, but when I was studying theology I used a study version of the NRSV which is fantastic for discussing many of the points raised here. The NIV was developed by scholars who believe the Bible to be infallible- just as the KJV was so many years ago.

I don't want to turn this into a debate on women and the priesthood but I know some fantastic, godly women priests who bring Christ into the lives of all they touch. I feel that I may have a vocation to the Ministry, too, although at the moment my vocation to motherhood is greater and will take priority for some time. (Sorry if this sounds a bit "me, me, me" but I think it's imporrtant to state where I'm coming from.) Yes, parts of the Bible can be interpreted to forbid women from preaching, but the there are parts that were used to justify the Holocaust. The Bible also tells us to stone those caught in adultery, but even the most fudamentalist churches seem to have drawn the line at that one.

Threeangels I'm not getting at you here, or anyone else. I just know that God sees us all as equal and loves us all the same; men, women, selfless carers, parents ,priests, criminals, murderers and yes, even paedophiles - all are loved by God. It doesn't mean that there will be no judgement, but there will never be abandonment either. I sincerely hope tha t my views don't offend anyone, especially you, threeangels, who have been so kind in replying to questions about my dd's feeding problems.

Sorry I seem to have gone off the thread a bit. With regards worship music, I think all types have their time and place. I mean a well-sung choral evensong is beautiful, but then so is a modern hymn like "Be Still", particularly when sung at a family service. I really like the music of the Iona Community - anyone else love "A Touching Place"?

Threeangels. PLEASE don't leave this thread.
You are absolutely NOT an outcast , far less a jerk.
It is of course a very sensitive topic in that many people will have made up their own minds about christianity, God, the whole thing , never mind the more minor details like christian rock music, but that does not prevent us having a very interesting discussion.
You clearly don't feel you have to dilute your views to make tham more acceptable and that is a good thing, whether others agree with your views or not.
I was brought up in a Brethren household ( this will mean nothing at all to 95% of people reading this) . My family all now belong to various evangelical churches and I describe myself if anything as a lapsed born again christian.
I found it hard to separate all the stuff I was taught as a tiny child from what I truly could believe for myself as an adult.
I am rambling now so will stop!

Threeangels I've just read the bit that you wrote about being an outcast. Can I just add that I don't want you to leave the thread either, and that I do respect your views too? And you most definitly are not a jerk- otherwise you wouldn't be wanting to help people, would you? I know that there are many things that Christians disagree about but at the end of the day we are all sister and brothers in Christ. God bless!

threeangels - thank you for your apology - it was appropriate and well timed. I went upstairs and spoke to a christian friend who is staying with us after your last posting and said 'if she's any sort of a christian she'll repost and apologise', not really thinking you would. But you have, so thank you for that. It took humility. (one of the fruits of the spirit, as you know!). I do love modern praise, and find even secular singers such as Marvin Gaye and Roy Ayers have produced the most amazing worship songs. I love gospel music and a lot of 'happy clappy' stuff, as well as stuff like Hildegard of Bingham (did I spell that right) and benedictine chanting. It's not specifically the style I object to, it's the words, the message, as I explained earlier. Don't stop posting, but please don't be offended if I reply to your kjv comments tommorrow. Just waiting for dh to get home (doctor of theology teaching church history as we speak, in fact!) to see if my thoughts about your comments are right and can be justified theologically, or whether I'm just responding emotionally. Two heads are better than one.

Looking forward to hearing what your dad has to say Jasper.

Ionesmum, thankyou for you compliment. Im glad i could help. I really dont want to insult anyones beleifs. Which seems like I have been here and there. I just care about people. Id rather not give anymore views because ive probally already ruined my friendships on mumsnet. Im sorry.

Thank you Manna. I know this sounds weird or something but I felt like crying all day after reading the thread. I guess Im so emotional. I welcome any comments you have.

I feel like noone will want to help me with future problems and that they wont care what i say. Thankyou for wanting me to stay. It might take me a little while to join in any other threads. But you guys are a caring group.

Oh dear, looks like I opened a can of worms when I mentioned religion in that other thread and suggested setting one up.

It is nice to hear that people have the strength of faith to believe but the question I must ask is why believe in someone/something else when, from what I have seen, all most people need is to believe in themselves and what they can do without all of the religious claptrap.

What each person believes is up to them but what I dislike the most is that all of the major organised religions in the world seem to want to exert a degree of control over peoples lives that I find totally unacceptable and the fact that some of them think that the can convert me by preaching to me about it.

I also think that religion has had it's name blackened by fanatics, of all religions, so that people tend to assume that if you are very religious that you are either a fanatic or sympathise with them.

Now I know that I will be disagreed with by a number of people and I accept that my views are based on what I have seen and done so it cannot be a true representation of what is happening worldwide as I don't know everything that is happening but I do like to believe that I keep an open mind.

Like some of the others that have posted on this thread I have had friends that are of different faiths (form christians through pagans to one who is an openly practicing satanist) and know that not all religious people preach their faith. In fact the only people that I have ever been preached to by are from various Christian sects which does make me wonder why Christianity has to work so hard and, in a lot of cases that I know of, have totally alienate people by preaching to them?

I also have to ask what attracts people to believe in any religion as until they can prove that there is a God or Gods with hard proof then all people have to go on is the writtings of someone from a long time ago. If someone produced the bible nowadays then most people would not even touch it. It would be considered a rather poor bit of writing such as a lot of people think about the Scientologists book (and yes I have read it, many years ago, and I thought it was rubbish).

ThreeAngels

If a friend cannot forgive you for disagreeing with them then who can? And from what I've seen on this site then the majority of people here are friends of one sort or another.

I seriously doubt that anyone here would not try to help you out if you posted a question.

I may not be a religious person but I have been told by others that I am a good one (bang goes my street cred) and if you ever need help and I can provide it then I will, regardless of what our differences in opinion over religion may be.

ThreeAngels

If a friend cannot forgive you for disagreeing with them then who can? And from what I've seen on this site then the majority of people here are friends of one sort or another.

I seriously doubt that anyone here would not try to help you out if you posted a question.

I may not be a religious person but I have been told by others that I am a good one (bang goes my street cred) and if you ever need help and I can provide it then I will, regardless of what our differences in opinion over religion may be.

Thankyou SimonHoward I do appreciate that. I know Ive said some negative things to you somewhere in the thread. Just want to give a sincere apology.

threeangels, please don't feel like an outcast for expressing your deepfelt beliefs and feelings; there have been lots of VERY heated debates on this site but I for one would never reply to a posting for help just because I disageed with that person's views and neither would most people. Your opinions and advice are important - please stay!

ThreeAngels

Thankyou but there is nothing to appologies for. I'd prefer to have a really good dicussion or even arguement with someone about something we both have strong feelings on (boy have my mother and I done that) then just have a load of wimps and yes men/women around.

I hold people that stick to their beliefs. what ever they are, in high regard as too many people sway with popular sentiment so they don't want to stick out. I may not agree with their beliefs but as long as they do no harm to anyone then I am happy to leave them as they are.

I've just re-read that - I meant I would never NOT reply to a posting...

Rhubarb, in reply to your posting on the Father's Day thread, it was wrong of me to be so flippant in assuming you would want to dismiss the JWs so offhandly, so I apologise for that. A lot of people are at a loss when it comes to answering their questions when they knock at the door and I feel it is better for them to have no contact with them at all than try to get into a no-win argument with them (I don't mean you of course!). I am certainly not anti-JW - the person - but I am very anti their teaching. I stand by what I said about their zealousness in door-knocking; they believe their salvation can be earnt by hard work, instead of it being a free gift of God for those that have accepted Christ as their personal saviour.

The JWs are well-known for their prophesies of the end times and the second coming of Christ - in 100 years 100% of their prophesies have failed, so that is just one of many reasons why their organisation is a false prophet.

Bloss, the book you mentioned on JWs sounds fascinating, I will try and get hold of it.

Genuine questions alert.

I don't know much about the JW's but is it true that they believe that only x number of people will be saved at the end of the world? If so, isn't it in their interests to convert less people?

Also, for those who believe in the concept of heaven, what do you mean/understand heaven to be?

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Regarding women preachers, I'm just interested to hear whether anyone has actually listened to Joyce Meyer? Bloss, she is televised in Australia on Channel 10 and also on our local television station, but don't know about the UK. I am also confused about the 'women preaching' issue, but you truly have to listen to this woman to understand why she is so popular. She is very committed, extremely practical, has a worldwide ministry and her teaching is excellent. She has also addressed the issue of women preaching and I thought her answers were quite interesting. I was on the internet one night and came across a guy who had set up his own chat room called "Betrayed by God". He was very bitter and had set up his site for athiests and anyone else who was anti-God. I was very interested in why he felt the way he did so I started to talk to him. He told me he hated the church and all preachers, except that one day he happened to see Joyce Meyer on television and he was captivated by what she was saying. He felt that her message was being directed at him and that he would probably listen to her again in the future. Surely this is a good thing??? She said she has always had the call of God on her life, and her husband and her family are also part of her ministry. Her teaching has helped me immensely so I don't understand why (especially in these days) a woman can't be used by God as well as men.

Bloss- how do you plan to square your beliefs with bringing up your kids? Are you going to tell dd that she should submit to her future husband and that it is not morally acceptable for women to preach to a mixed congregation? Will you teach ds that if he has sexual feelings for another male and acts upon them he will go to hell? Will you tell them that atheist Aunty Annie (substitute an appropriate non-believing and much-loved relative) will be denied access to heaven? What if they reject your religious ideals as they get older, as so many children do? How do you think you and they would cope with this?

Here's my unpopular thought: I worry for the mental health and future happiness of children whose experience of religious teaching is seeped in messages of hell-fire dogma, gender inequality and intolerance of difference. I have several friends for whom these sorts of messages in childhood have proved a scarring experience indeed.

Will be interested to hear your thoughts, Bloss and everyone else.

Best Wishes

Scummy...

...who is almost certainly headed for the burny-burny place.

p.s. Was a bit puzzled by: "and we can get stoned together", Bloss. Is drug taking allowed within your religious belief framework?! I was quite surprised to see you offering threeangels a cyber-joint!

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I don't want this to sound flippant, it's not meant like that at all I'm not a bible expert as I am not a great believer in a specific religion (I think that all religions are valid and we should not be so arrogant to assume that our god is the one and only god. I also find some of the things done in the name of religion unbelievable) Anyway...

Bloss says "God does not change" but here's an interesting thought to throw into the debate : If God were to write a bible now, or "update" the original, would it contain the same principles?

We are very different people to those who were living when the bible was written with a very different language and life. Would He clarify the JW belief about "not consuming blood", blood transfusions not having been around when the Bible was written? JW may have been right all along... Would He change the part about women not preaching in light of the change in female roles in modern society? It is, of course, impossible to say.

It must be very difficult to live a modern life by rules written thousands of years ago. The basic principles (eg 10 commandments) are sound but in modern society, some of the nuances are surely no longer appropriate?

Bloss - how can you say that people who are not Christain reject God ? To reject you have to believe that God exist don't you ???

Also I am puzzled by "homosexuality is wrong"... do you believe homosexuals have a choice in their sexual preference ?

Thanks

Love your posts