For me this sums up MNHQ treatment of autistic posters

[StopHateAgainstAutisticPeople]

I took this screenshot today of my two watched threads and I thought a good visual representation of the ableism autistic people face here.

one thread where non-autistic people get to spread misinformation about autism and another where the OP wanted to talk about ableism in general. Of course it ended up with two non-autistic people asking us over and over to justify ourselves.

one is on thread 6, the other has been deleted (they say hidden but it has been 24+ hours)

i feel so despondent. Knowing this is how society sees us just makes everything too much of a struggle. I’m an inconvenience. I don’t think enough about how non-autistic people are adversely impacted by me. I don’t matter.

being autistic is so fucking shit. We’re the blame-magnets of society. I want to shut my eyes and mind.

I'm terrible at being able to put my thoughts into cohesive writing and you've just summed up what I've been stewing about all day. So thank you and another well said!

I'm ND myself, that's why I read this board and the other thread, but I don't think it helps anyone to suggest that NT/allistic distress must always take a back seat or be swept under the carpet so that the autistic person is always centred. Their distress over their own unmet needs is as valid as the distress felt by autistic people over theirs and they have every right to discuss it, especially when the rest of their lives are spent centring their partners in so many cases. Ableist comments should always be reported but the thread clearly helps those that post on it who are struggling with something we're not.

I'm so fucking sick of hearing about that thread, the majority are based on arm chair diagnosis of shitty behavior. Congrats you married a shitty partner who's probably not even autistic but go ahead and whine constantly about how autistic people do x y and z.

Their distress over their own unmet needs is as valid as the distress felt by autistic people over theirs and they have every right to discuss it

But not on a board specifically for neurodiverse people though right? Also, I don’t think it’s fair to constantly see people talking about shitty partners and saying things like, they’re probably autistic. I see that a lot. I am not ND and I find it hard to see that over and over. If they’re not diagnosed why do people think and assume a useless partner must then be autistic? Like it’s a trait. It isn’t. I think that’s what OP and others are talking about.

And also sorry if that sounds like I am talking for the ND people on this thread… just my take from this thread that is what you mean.

but I don't think it helps anyone to suggest that NT/allistic distress must always take a back seat or be swept under the carpet so that the autistic person is always centred

literally no-one - absolutely no-one - has suggested that we should “sweep it under the carpet”

amd also - you state you are ND. So fine to be on this board but, unless you are autistic, it is absolutely not fine for you to come on here and tell autistic people what’s right and wrong. It’s like Laurence Fox saying there is no racism in the UK.

im so fucking sick of non-autistic people spouting this crap that we’re trying to say we think our needs are more important. That’s just gaslighting - to deflect and undermine a valid autistic concern.

there are huge problems with so many threads on MN about “abusive” autistic partners

• most are armchair diagnoses
• many, many of the traits being discussed ARE NOT RECOGNISED AUTISTIC TRAITS
• a while shitload of ignorance about autism is present on MN- “mild autism” (not a diagnosis), “very high functioning” (which translated means “very IQ over 70” I.e. nonsensical. No empathy….it goes on and on
• they can leave their partners - they CHOSE to be with them (though many state they are just staying for the sake of kids).
• there could be a whole range of reasons why a marriage is difficult and it is not just the fault of an autistic partner. What if the non- autistic partner may have a personality disorder, be an alcoholic or there could be a big intelligence difference?
• their partner may be autistic and he may be an utter abusive twat too. It’s not the autism that makes him abusive.

there is so much unmitigated shite about autism spouted here which will do SO MUCH DAMAGE. not just to those of us who are autistic, but parents of kids who are not diagnosed yet. If these parents read the thread then I can imagine some may be discouraged from seeking a diagnosis for the child which would be a tragedy.

and how must parents of autistic children (no learning difficulties) must feel when they read the prejudice - endorsed by MNHQ - that is on display every single day??

Fuck I’m so angry at the injustice. (But apparently that’s just my rigid thinking and my rigid thinking means I cannot see anyone else’s point of view. More bullshit)

👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾 what you’re saying is true and needs to be said, good for you. You know the same crap was on this menopause forum I used to be on! Someone had a ‘horrible husband’… suddenly everyone diagnosed him autistic! Over and over. The poor man just wanted a divorce and for her to stop coming over to cry about how horrible he was!! But it is everywhere and way to common on MN and I’m very sorry. If it upsets me, it must be really horrible for someone who is ND. I wish MNHQ would listen.

As I said before I'm in support of support threads, but not the "he must be autistic because" comments so I'm somewhere in the middle of this argument. Unfortunately I don't think you can get one without the other.

I totally agree regarding armchair diagnosis. My DP, now and again will appear to have ADHD (even one of his college asked him if he was because he was fidgeting a lot one day) yet every time we do an online test for him, it scores very unlikely. He is a product of instant gratification from current society (wants to watch a film, download it. Wants a new book, Amazon next day etc.) but he doesn't get the loss of focus, constant chatter and jumping from task to task. And he can get the boring stuff done "just coz it needs to be done" so I have no doubt he is NT. yet a lot of people jump on the ND bandwagon without really considering what it really is

Nobody is "trampling you down" for pointing out that a statement about the "problem" of people framing their partner’s autism around how it affects them, and not the autistic individual is incredibly unfair. And this is a public forum - anyone can post anywhere they like (something many on here take advantage of on one of the threads under question even if it isn't ostensibly for them). The whole point is discussion. Not everything is an attack.

I now remember why the had to take this section off active.

anyone can post anywhere they like

Actually not quite accurate. Boards, like this one, have certain themes and can be for certain groups, like black mumsnetters, ND munsnetters… others can post but you have to be mindful the space was created for them.
The thread in question isn’t on a board just for them, it also isn’t an issue because it’s a support thread for partners of those who are ND, it’s that a lot of those posts
a) are not speaking of diagnosed ND, so it’s just lumping horrible thoughtless partners in because of stereotypes
b) a LOT of those complaining about their autistic partners have ADHD. Im still looking through it as I saw someone mention it but they all appeared to not like the suggestion it was the particular match up of those with ADHD & ASD together.
c) I would say from reading halfway through that about 2/3rds of the things being attributed to autism are not related to it at all. They have a statement that autistic people can’t come on and tell them they’re wrong, which is a problem if their understanding of autism is wrong itself.

@WahineToa

your posts on the other thread are flipping marvellous!

if I was a huggy type of person I’d be hugging you right now!

thank you SO much. What you have said is so so important. Just brilliant.

PS your posts here are fabulous too!

Oh thank you!! I hope they help? That thread is 🤦🏾‍♀️

It really is 🤦‍♀️!

but I see you’ve added another belter of a post! And they can’t accuse you of rigid thinking either!

but isn’t it sad it has to come to this - such an adversarial, dogmatic thread which ultimately helps no-one move forward constructively

I’m waiting for them to ‘accuse’ me of being autistic! I’m honestly trying to just give my own life experience as input and to try and I guess speak on an equal footing. I’m in the same position, I have a child with ASD too. I can’t be accused of not understanding or not knowing or having it ‘easy’. The way my child’s school behaved was horrendous and took so much out of me for years and years. I was burnt out. That wasn’t autism, it was the lack of flexibility and understanding by NT staff at school. Oh the irony of autistic people being called inflexible over and over. Some of the things I recognise and stuff but it’s too much of the negative and complaints that are not autism at all. It’s weighted too far in that way to not say so. I also do give similar advice to my friends with NT relationships. I don’t think it’s wise to stay in relationships that make either desperately unhappy. I would never tell someone to stay in that long term. Because what is happening in some cases is, they’re staying but making themselves unhappy by doing so AND taking it out on the partner with ASD like they’re doing it intentionally to make their life miserable. That’s not good for either person and if there’s arguing and complaining about it all the time, what good is that? In my humble opinion, as an NT partner, you don’t just accept autism, you have to embrace it. There’s two in a relationship. I already know my autistic partner has spent all his years before and with me learning about and adapting to the NT world. He’s done the work and he keeps doing it every damn day. So who am I to complain I have to learn about and understand autism, or my husbands world? It’s the least I can do when he is doing the exact same for me but to a much much larger degree? I mean, I love this man. Why the fuck would I do anything to make his life more difficult? My life navigating the world is a breeze in comparison to his experience. Anyway… I always go off on a rant! I hope I make sense 😂

I agree with all you have written and appreciate your posts so much.

Yes re accusing you of being autistic, or being a sock puppet, or a troll as some posters are absolutely hellbent on just having their views justified - they are absolutely close minded.

I think it would be really valuable if you shared your thoughts with MNHQ. I have been trying and trying - just asking for two small changes but all i get told is that it’s important that people in abusive relationships have a safe space to share and vent. Autistic posters on MN are definitely in the uncool gang - just like at school (though I didn’t have a gang, just an uncool me).

MNHQ just don’t seem to get that allowing posters to ascribe any trait or problem to autism is just not fair. I’m totally happy for a space where non-autistic partners can share, but not when it’s almost exclusively negative and full of utter nonsense about what autism actually is.

Your children are so so lucky to have you as a mum. Fighting in their corner, showing them autistic people are perfectly loveable and capable of loving and that it’s a difference, which does bring its challenges, but that doesn’t mean autistic people are of any less value as part of society. It is people like you who help change this so much.

Again, thank you.

The vast majority of people on ‘that’ thread have posted that they love their partners and that they are good people.

There is a generality of aspects which can be attributed to being autistic that cause issues. There’s value in knowing you’re not alone. It’s supportive and maybe that’s why Mumsnet don’t take it down. It isn’t what you perceive it to be. Just a thought.

It’s true there’s a lot of healthy and respectful support. It’s also true there is ableism and some factually incorrect stereotypes that I think it should be fine to point out.

Yes, I agree. Things are rarely as cut and dried as posters on both ‘sides’ of the issue are stating.

I do understand the hurt and fear of reading stereotypes though, as they can have real life impacts with terrible consequences. My only intention when I write about autism is to help understanding and support with wisdom from my 30 years experience. I have zero malicious intent.

@7eleven

that’s the point. None of my posts “over there” say that there shouldn’t be a support thread. But it’s is hugely unfair to attribute so many traits to autism which are nothing to do with autism. Controlling and manipulation of other people for example - that’s really not an autistic trait at all. But yes to trying to keep our surroundings as familiar and known as possible.

and then when I pointed out that “mild autism” was not a diagnosis I got rounded on. Really aggressively and frankly I felt totally bullied.

perhaps if you come on this thread we could discuss things a little less aggressively? I know that not all the posters there are aggressive, but there seem to be a couple that do respond with considerable venom.

Controlling behaviour can be a part of the profile of some presentations of ASD e.g. some presentations of PDA or some of those with demand avoidant traits in areas which don’t diagnosis PDA. The PDA society recognise controlling behaviour can, among many other traits, be a part of the PDA profile for some people - here is their website stating so. Obviously not all autistic people though.

I post this as a autistic adult with autistic DC.

That’s interesting re PDA. I don’t know much about it but unless the poster has specifically stated they believe that PDA applies to their partner, I think it’s harsh to talk about it as if it was a common Asperger symptom (the thread specifically states Asperger in its title, and my diagnosis is Asperger’s hence my sensitivity). Also, My understanding is also that PDA is not officially (yet) officially recognised as part of autistic spectrum (but my understanding may be completely wrong)

what I specifically didn’t agree with however was the comment that the autistic spouses were deliberately manipulating situations and enjoying controlling their partners and making them unhappy “because it gives them a dopamine high”. That’s a psychopath surely? It is not a regular autistic trait to deliberately cause someone else pain?

of course there may be co-morbidities with autism which do cause such behaviours, but I absolutely reject any suggestion that being deliberately cruel is something that is common amongst autistic people.

I just want a fair hearing for those of us with Asperger’s syndrome or it’s equivalent. There is so much misinformation which perpetuates the stigma and prejudice we face every single day.

PDA is considered a subsection of the autism spectrum. This is the PDA society’s page stating so. But many areas in the UK don’t recognise it as a stand-alone diagnosis, so many with PDA won’t have a PDA diagnosis instead they’ll have a diagnosis of ASD or autism or Asperger syndrome depending on when they were diagnosed. Sometimes their report will state with demand avoidance traits and other times it won’t.

And even where it is recognised as a specific subsection of the autism spectrum people can have demand avoidance traits without having a PDA diagnosis, so some with demand avoidance traits will have an Asperger Syndrome diagnosis.

So while I don’t agree with everything posted on those threads e.g. mild autism, I don’t think they should have to specify their partner has demand avoidance traits before discussing controlling behaviour. As a comparison not everyone has sensory differences as part of their autism profile and posters don’t and shouldn’t have to put a disclaimer in their post before posting about difficulties with food textures.