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Lone parents

Use our Single Parent forum to speak to other parents raising a child alone.

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Original poster

prevent children from relocating abroad with the other parent

231 replies

reallywanttohelp · 27/10/2019 12:01

NC for this thread.

A (male) friend of mine had a brief and unhappy marriage (now divorced for a couple of years) and two children from it. The mother of the children is originally not from the UK and had asked the family court for a permission to relocate with their children back to her own country (non EU, not English speaking, and very underdeveloped).

His children are his life (without any exaggeration, he is talking about them all the time), he sees them almost every week, and has a very close and loving relationship. They go on the day trips, to zoos, parks and museums, and are really happy together. He also plans to apply for at least a 50/50 custody once they are a little bit older and the court takes their views into account.

He will have a direct access barrister representing him during the process (which will cost him all his savings), but he is currently retraining for a new career and does not earn anything so cannot afford a solicitor on a day-to-day basis. The mother has a professional job (they met through work) and is reasonably well-off, it is not the case that she struggles in any way - a homeowner, has a cleaner / nanny / dog walker, able to afford nursery fees etc.

He asked me to help with all possible arguments why the children should not be relocating abroad (they spent almost their life in the UK, despite being born in that country). Not from the legal perspective, it will be the barrister's job to convert them into the statement for the court, but rather from the children's perspective. He is very distraught now and not thinking straight, this application was a complete surprise for him.

OP posts:

catspyjamas123 · 27/10/2019 12:14

Why are you coming up with the arguments and not him? He’s the father. You are a “friend”. I don’t understand your role in this.

Original poster

reallywanttohelp · 27/10/2019 12:18

I don’t understand your role in this.
Just supporting him really (as a friend), he is really stressed about this situation and asked for a brainstorm.

OP posts:

MoonahStone · 27/10/2019 12:19

Why did he not have 50/50 custody from the beginning. Your description in your post does make him sound more like a Disney dad than a key role in their life.

VimFuego101 · 27/10/2019 12:20

'He sees them almost every week'. This doesn't sound like a lot of contact so may not go in his favour - the court might say he could just be allocated more time during school holidays to make up for the time he may lose due to the move. Does he have them for the majority of the holidays? Does he Skype/ call them regularly during times he's not with them, is he involved in their schooling/ parents evenings/ general parenting such as taking them to doctors appts?

Original poster

reallywanttohelp · 27/10/2019 12:24

Why did he not have 50/50 custody from the beginning.
They separated even before the youngest was born, he applied for 50/50 immediately but the court rejected his application on the basis that he worked full time then (the mother also started working full time once the order was made, the baby was only 6 months at that time, but the court - surprisingly - was not interested anymore).
He was advised to wait now until the children are in the secondary school, as then they are considered capable to decide who they want to live with (they are 5 and 3 now).

OP posts:

DuchessDumbarton · 27/10/2019 12:26

Yup agree with Moonah.
Lets see...
"he sees them almost every week" .....Why not every week for half the week?
"They go on the day trips, to zoos, parks and museums".....who deals with runny noses, tummy viruses, goes to the parent teacher meetings, takes time off work if the nanny is ill?

"He also plans to apply for at least a 50/50 custody once they are a little bit older" Why not now?

MoonahStone · 27/10/2019 12:27

What makes him so sure when the children are 13 and 12 they'll suddenly want to change the arrangement they've had all their lives?

Original poster

reallywanttohelp · 27/10/2019 12:27

Does he have them for the majority of the holidays?
Unfortunately the mother does not allow overnights, and his living conditions at the moment are not ideal for having them full time (he house shares). So he meets them on the weekend during the day.
Does he Skype/ call them regularly during times he's not with them, is he involved in their schooling/ parents evenings/ general parenting such as taking them to doctors appts?
Yes, he is very involved in all the logistics, more than the mother I'd say (and I observed this situation closely for more than two years now).

OP posts:

Lunafortheloveogod · 27/10/2019 12:27

So he doesn’t pay a penny towards their up bringing due to changing his own career and retraining.. assuming he originally had a job with an income when they met at work, doesn’t have them half of the time.. maybe once a week... does the Disney dad routine to boot. Waiting till their view can be taken into account.. they’ll be teens by then realistically. Mother has little to no support locally if her family are all abroad? And if she’s considering moving somewhere undeveloped instead of living somewhere she has a decent job etc she’s probably struggling with some part of daily life.

Great he can afford zoo’s n great days out with them but can’t support feeding n clothing them.

Surely if he was that involved he would have his own arguments.

DuchessDumbarton · 27/10/2019 12:28

Cross posted.

VimFuego101 · 27/10/2019 12:31

'The mother does not allow overnights' - why is there not a legal agreement in place controlling access and including overnights? The limited contact he has currently won't help his case.

Original poster

reallywanttohelp · 27/10/2019 12:32

Perhaps professional mum is looking to relocate home, so that she can have family support to bring up the children, rather than replying on paying for lots of help and the occasional input of their father?
Yes, and I honestly can totally sympathise with this. But it will be a disaster for the children, to be torn away from their dad, friends and everything they know.
The father even offered to help with relocating the maternal grandparents to the UK so that she could have family support (write an invitation letter / guarantee to the immigration authorities that they wont be a drain on the welfare system, and everything else required for the family visa). It was turned down for unknown reason.

OP posts:

titchy · 27/10/2019 12:34

They're 5 and 3. They'll adapt very very quickly. The father can't even house them adequately, doesn't quite manage to see them every week, pays little maintenance and does all the glory stuff and none of the day to day drudgery. And now suddenly he wants 50/50

Original poster

reallywanttohelp · 27/10/2019 12:35

'The mother does not allow overnights' - why is there not a legal agreement in place controlling access and including overnights?
There is a court order in place that specifies weekend day time contact only. He was advised that overturning it will be a nightmare, and it is easier to wait it out.
He did have overnight contact when the mother had to spend a night in hospital, he is not barred from it on the grounds of violence / abuse (I know that's what MN thinks usually).

OP posts:

DuchessDumbarton · 27/10/2019 12:37

If they met through work, and she is relatively well off, would it be a fair assumption to think that he had a well paying job when he was the one working full-time when the second child was born 3years ago?

Why did he give that up?

IdiotInDisguise · 27/10/2019 12:38

He can’t pay maintenance, has no home for them, was okay with the silly advice to wait until they were in secondary school to apply.... Honestly, he doesn’t have much of a case does he? He doesn’t even have them over night.

I would say that if he has not clicked that he is a father and he has not managed to provide for the kids in more than three years, he has no chance to get 50/50.

He can cry as much as other irresponsible parents do, it is always easier to say you are not “allowed” to see the children than to say you are a wanker who has left his kids’ mum carry the full responsibility to provide for the kids. Everybody can take the kids to the park, he has not really been there for them as a parent.

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 27/10/2019 12:39

I would be devastated if my ex had residence of our children and the court gave him permission to move them overseas.
I would definitely offer robust arguments against it.

But I can't really understand this stance of living somewhere that doesn't allow for overnight contact.

Even a one bedroom flat where he could sleep on a sofa bed in the living room would show willing.

Original poster

reallywanttohelp · 27/10/2019 12:39

So he doesn’t pay a penny towards their up bringing due to changing his own career and retraining..
Every spare penny he has goes and always went to their cause. He changed his career now as the old one was not family friendly (long hours corporate type job). It is a matter of only few years until he will be able to contribute significantly again, and help with more significant expenses such as uni fees etc.

OP posts:

titchy · 27/10/2019 12:40

He was advised that overturning it will be a nightmare, and it is easier to wait it out.

Yeah course he was...

titchy · 27/10/2019 12:42

So he's now in a new family friendly career and still doesn't manage to see the kids for more than a few hours at the weekend.

Good luck to mother I say...

TheSecretJeven · 27/10/2019 12:42

How can the father be a guarantor for the maternal grandparents if he hasn't got an income and lives in a house share?

Original poster

reallywanttohelp · 27/10/2019 12:43

Was it turned down because he isn't a high earner so can't really vouch for people coming from overseas? A letter saying 'oh yeah it'll be grand' isn't the sort of thing the home office look for I don't think.
I did not mean that his support was turned down by the home office, the offer to support their relocation was turned down by the mother.

OP posts:

VimFuego101 · 27/10/2019 12:47

I have every sympathy with him but he doesn't seem to have much of a case. Courts look at the status quo and he doesn't seem to have much contact now. It sounds like he's been badly advised in terms of waiting until they're older.

If I were him I would be looking at getting a place where the children are able to stay with him, getting the order varied to have more contact and establishing himself as more of a presence in their lives. If he isn't able to do that then I don't rate his chances of the court blocking the request to move the children abroad.

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 27/10/2019 12:47

But perhaps they thought it wouldn't be useful.
Or indeed didn't want to relocate to the UK.

Original poster

reallywanttohelp · 27/10/2019 12:49

But back to the question, removal of jurisdiction process are incredibly lengthy and massively costly (£10,000s) so I wouldn’t be too worried about this one being successful if he opposes his kids’ move.
Yes, that is what I think as well following my research. But he is really scared and stressed that he will lose his children forever now due to some legal blunder, or if he does not submit a novel-length argument about why the children need him. It feels like a personal attack against him and his ability as a parent, to say - "well, all great, but say bye-bye now, you don't need your dad in your life anymore".
It is a 4 hours flight (and very expensive tickets), he won't be able just to fly over there every weekend.

OP posts:

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