prevent children from relocating abroad with the other parent

[reallywanttohelp]

NC for this thread.

A (male) friend of mine had a brief and unhappy marriage (now divorced for a couple of years) and two children from it. The mother of the children is originally not from the UK and had asked the family court for a permission to relocate with their children back to her own country (non EU, not English speaking, and very underdeveloped).

His children are his life (without any exaggeration, he is talking about them all the time), he sees them almost every week, and has a very close and loving relationship. They go on the day trips, to zoos, parks and museums, and are really happy together. He also plans to apply for at least a 50/50 custody once they are a little bit older and the court takes their views into account.

He will have a direct access barrister representing him during the process (which will cost him all his savings), but he is currently retraining for a new career and does not earn anything so cannot afford a solicitor on a day-to-day basis. The mother has a professional job (they met through work) and is reasonably well-off, it is not the case that she struggles in any way - a homeowner, has a cleaner / nanny / dog walker, able to afford nursery fees etc.

He asked me to help with all possible arguments why the children should not be relocating abroad (they spent almost their life in the UK, despite being born in that country). Not from the legal perspective, it will be the barrister's job to convert them into the statement for the court, but rather from the children's perspective. He is very distraught now and not thinking straight, this application was a complete surprise for him.

If they were born in that country, then why does she need permission to take them back there? This thread has actually given me the rage!! It reads like man is a hero for taking kids to fun things at the weekend, and has a plan to ask the dc to choose who they want the most after 11+ years of the mother being a real parent on her own and him being weekend fun.

The term at least 50/50 is just out of order, he either believes a child should have a main home in which case should leave them be with the parent who has more than earned that right, or he believes in a child's right to spend equal time with both parents in which case there should be no at least about it. What a cunt, he see's her as a free surrogate and nanny who pays the lions share financially too and does the hardest part ready for him to swan in when they are pretty much independent.

What was a 'brief and unhappy marriage' for him saw this lady move to another country and sacrifice being with her family or in her culture and moving her children to where he is set up just fine, now he is insinuating 'allowing' his children to speak their mothers language and be exposed to their heritage is a huge favour and optional, This comment there are literally hundreds of languages that would be more of use to them when they are older. is gross, That is THEIR language. and as for the point the children not encouraged to learn English so they might not even have means of communications etc what evidence do you have that this would be the case? she has allowed them to MOVE to England and sacrificed everything for them to have that link. And this separation from loving grandparents here in the UK, why maternal grandparents are suddenly more important than paternal well why are paternal GP's more important than maternal?
Your boyfriend had a child with someone who is not English in a country that was not England, why can't he see that those children are not just English? and have every right to experience their other culture and know their other family.
BTW many men talk about their kids all the time, they know that women especially are very attracted to devoted fathers, it means nothing without actions backing it up.

He’s done a right number on you hasnt he?

It is about children once again being victims to the whims of their parents crap decision making.
Yes, absolutely this. Relocating abroad in this case, in all likelihood, means that he won't be present in their lives until they are able to travel independently. By that time he is likely to be just another stranger. Thank you for seeing through my inconsistent delivery. It is not even about who pays for the school lunches or whether the mother is neglectful or the father is a bit disneydaddish. I can't see what the upsides could be to justify losing one parent, even if they are not the parent of the year award winner.

There is a court order in place that specifies weekend day time contact only

Interesting.

I'd keep your beak out OP. A lot of what hes told you, doesnt even sound plausible. He wont get 50/50. He hasnt even lived with one of the kids, and the other , not since a baby. He barely sees them, pays fuck all towards them. Its very easy to be disney dad when they are small and cute like this, but it sounds like the ex is putting in all the hard graft and supporting her kids pretty much single handedly, while the dad cries about how hard done by he is to his female friend, and now wants to stop her going back to her family. If this isnt an advert for not putting the dads on the birth certificate if they dump you in pregnancy I dont know what is

Anotheruser02
You are making a lot of very hurtful assumptions there. She did not sacrifice everything to move to the UK for him, they already met here through work and she was happily settled with a lot of friends etc. The children were born in her country as the mother was distrustful of the NHS (and they could not afford private), and travelled to give birth in her home country in a private clinic with her mother at her side. Then she lost her job (actually because of her unilateral decision to start her maternity leave 3 months early without agreeing it with work), and had to apply for a wife / fiancée visa to return to the UK.

He did not fuck off leaving her holding the baby. He walked in on her cheating on him when she was 8 months pregnant.

Yes, I'm sure that's exactly how it happened! 1

@Whatwouldbigfatfannydo
She admitted this during the divorce and happily agreed to a DNA test as she wasn't even sure who was the father.

Given that she

travelled to give birth in her home country in a private clinic with her mother at her side.

I don't think he can claim that the health care in her country is bad.

Also if she gave birth in her home country which is a four hour flight away, where did he walk in on her having an affair at 8 months pregnant. You can't fly when you are 8 months pregnant.

So, admittedly I have not rtft but I have a lot of experience here and wanted to offer a supportive perspective as you seem to be getting quite bashed OP.
I am an English national ‘stuck’ in another country with 3 kids. I know a fair number of mixed nationality divorced families and have seen a number of different arrangements.
The first thing I would advise you to do with your friend is to consider what would be in the best interests of the kids rather than your friend. It might be that a move back to the mother’s home country enables her to have domestic help/extended family involvement/a better standard of living than at present. You mentioned it was a fairly basic country, I guess if she has some £ saved, she could buy an amazing place there..? The other thing is, she may well be happier in herself and that would have a huge effect on the kids. I am sure it is not a decision she has taken lightly. Spend some time considering why she has reached this decision.
Once you understand this, think about how your friend can best support the kids. I have seen various arrangements, for instance, he could rent/buy his own place in the mums home country and arrange his holidays when the kids are off, or if it isn’t too far, book flights in advance for every 2nd/4th weekend. He could also make an effort to learn the lingo as that will be his kids first language pretty soon.
Additionally, he should prepare a home in the uk for his kids to spend an extended time period in. It might be that in a few years they spend the holidays with him and even stay with him for further Ed as you mentioned it is not widely available in the mum’s country.
iMHO, this, not child centered approach would be far better for the kids than a huge expensive court battle that would alienate the mother and possibly not be in the best interests of the kids.

assuming what he says is true his arguments should be

1. he sees the children regularly ( lots of kids are on EOW)
2. they are settled in school here
3. their paternal grandparents live here ( do they have a relationship with them)
4. He has regular skype facetime with them
5. he pays at least the minimum child maintenance every month
6. he has always supported them participating in their mothers culture

more negatively

1. he would seen children less regularly if at all due to expense of travelling
2. if true communication via skype maybe more difficult also time zones
3. risk of her failure to return them to UK for visits

10 does the country she is going to have hague convention ie once they are there will she effectively be able to stop all visits etc as different rules / laws 11 will the children's prospects be poorer? he will have no say in schooling etc

however it is rare for a parent to be allowed to take chidren overseas away from a parent with parental responsibility even when access is relatively easy like France, in fact you can get orders preventing moves to Edinburgh from London but he does need a lawyer

and you need to see that there is possibly another side but in general I do not think children should be moved away from one parent this is the rule in many countries in USA you often can't move out of state, in the Netherlands you need to stay close
if your friend has PR then he needs to agree to relocation or ask for a prohibited steps order it is upto the mother to show how it is in kids best interest and how she will facilitate continued access and access to teaching in English or at least classes after school so they remain fluent in father's language
in her favour she is moving back to her native country with family support rather than a third country to which she has no links.

courts will look to see whether it is a genuine move or an attempt to alienate one parent; how easy access is ie is there a direct flight can the other parent go for a weekend? it is not considered ideal fro kids to be only seeing parent at a hotel or at playparks? is the cost of travel likely to stop access
is the country a signatory to the Hague convention on child abduction,
whether the parent relocating has put thought into how the children are going to maintain relationship with other parent

A couple of typos sorry, the main one being the word ‘not’ instead of a comma near the end when talking about a child centered approach.

Also if she gave birth in her home country which is a four hour flight away, where did he walk in on her having an affair at 8 months pregnant. You can't fly when you are 8 months pregnant.
She spent a year of her maternity leave with their first there, and around 3 months after the second was born (she returned when he applied to the family court in the UK, and threatened him with the police action if he does not leave the house to her). The father was living in between two countries at that time, trying to juggle the job, house purchase in the UK and everything else. I think she just assumes that is what he will be doing again if she returns.

He could move to the other country? As he has previously lived there and hasn't got a job here anyway? That would enable continued contact and he could use his savings for housing there rather than a court case.

@anotheruser02

the legal position is that it is not so much where kids are born but where is there habitual residence according to Hague convention children can not be moved from their habitual residence to another country without the consent of all parties with parental responsibility ( holidays of less than 28 days excepted) the children are at school in UK so they are legally habitually resident in UK wherever they were born so they can not be removed from UK without the courts permission, OP's friend could give permission then the court would just need to be satisfied that welfare needs were being met and arrangements were in place for visitation communication and finances, however without OP's friends permission the courts will decide if it is the children's best interests, they they will either grant permission or give a prohibited steps order preventing mother from moving abroad with them

She spent a year of her maternity leave with their first there, and around 3 months after the second was born

So she was still in her home country at 8 months pregnancy then! So was your friend in that country too?

The father was living in between two countries at that time, trying to juggle the job, house purchase in the UK and everything else. I think she just assumes that is what he will be doing again if she returns.

And why can't he do that?
It would be the best thing for the children.

With each post she is sounding much worse and your poor friend has really suffered. I'm wondering what next, her home country is Syria?

Ah thanks for that teacup, I thought being passport holders of that country would mean they were free to go there. So as a side if a British passport holder moved their British born dc somewhere they couldn't return either without the other parent if the relationship broke down?

@IWorkAtTheCheescakeFactory
He was spending Friday (working remotely) + the weekend there, and Mon-Thu in the UK. One day he decided to come on Wednesday instead of the usual Thursday night, and had - lets say a little surprise.

@TeacupDrama
Thanks, this is very comprehensive. I am seeing him later today, will try to discuss this rationally, issue by issue. There is contact with paternal grandparents, but I am not sure if they would want to be involved in all this court drama.

Wealthy family, has savings.. needed you to pay £15 for school lunches for a child who should get them free.. probably hasn’t checked with the school (our locals use parent pay for tuck shop type things too)

Walked in on her cheating at 8months pregnant.. questioned dna.. no mention of which country, ignores that you can’t fly at 8 months gone.. nor would you be after a good shag unless he put your socks on n shaved your legs

Google would’ve told him you’re unlikely to get 50/50 of a newborn but that most young children can do 50/50 not teenagers.

Until he can sort a straight back story leave it well alone.

@marcopront

It will probably cost him around £1K / month to maintain contact like this (given that he has to pay for a hotel in addition to the flights now). It is just not plausible financially.

Wealthy family, has savings.. needed you to pay £15 for school lunches for a child who should get them free.

Good point.

OP how much money have you given to this man?