prevent children from relocating abroad with the other parent

[reallywanttohelp]

NC for this thread.

A (male) friend of mine had a brief and unhappy marriage (now divorced for a couple of years) and two children from it. The mother of the children is originally not from the UK and had asked the family court for a permission to relocate with their children back to her own country (non EU, not English speaking, and very underdeveloped).

His children are his life (without any exaggeration, he is talking about them all the time), he sees them almost every week, and has a very close and loving relationship. They go on the day trips, to zoos, parks and museums, and are really happy together. He also plans to apply for at least a 50/50 custody once they are a little bit older and the court takes their views into account.

He will have a direct access barrister representing him during the process (which will cost him all his savings), but he is currently retraining for a new career and does not earn anything so cannot afford a solicitor on a day-to-day basis. The mother has a professional job (they met through work) and is reasonably well-off, it is not the case that she struggles in any way - a homeowner, has a cleaner / nanny / dog walker, able to afford nursery fees etc.

He asked me to help with all possible arguments why the children should not be relocating abroad (they spent almost their life in the UK, despite being born in that country). Not from the legal perspective, it will be the barrister's job to convert them into the statement for the court, but rather from the children's perspective. He is very distraught now and not thinking straight, this application was a complete surprise for him.

@FarquarKumquatsmama
Thanks for some honesty there. It is unlikely at the moment that he will be able to set up his life there, buy or rent, or learn the language. Mainly because of financial reasons, but also because she is unlikely to encourage contact (and enforcing any court decision in her country does not seem realistic).

@IWorkAtTheCheescakeFactory
Less than £100 overall when the situation was really dire. He is not a boyfriend or a romantic interest. He's a family member if you really need to know.

it is extremely unlikely court would agree relocation to a country that is not signed to Hague convention,
however if it was granted there would be a fairly comprehensive order giving details of how parental contact and involvements would continue regarding health school visits etc
depending on words used in the other country normally a mirror order is registered with the court there ( certainly this is the case in the EU) so if there are problems with visitation communication the agreement is present though normally you would have to go to the court in the country in which the child was residing so if for example you flew to Barcelona for a week of the school holidays with your child and access was denied the issue would be raised in the court in Barcelona as a breach of whatever they call parental orders there as the original order would have been lodged with the court in Barcelona they would not be able to move from Barcelona to Stockholm without a further court hearing

Still too many things not adding up really.

He had a well paying job but decided to leave and share a house knowing he had kids to provide for? I'd expect a father to do everything in his power to maximise the amount of time he spent with his children, every single thing he's done (according to you) flies in the face of this.
He's either lied about his choices - which makes him an idiot.
Or actually made these choices - which makes him an even bigger idiot

Less than £100 overall when the situation was really dire.

Even though he has savings and wealthy family? Why didn’t he use his savings?

Don't trust this man OP- far too many holes in the story

By the way, is the mother Ukrainian? If so I think I know your family member and he is not the innocent party here...

Almost every week? Why does he not see them every week?

reallywanttohelp I am not necessarily suggesting to he sets to his life there, but he could think about renting a one bedroom
Flat or even a caravan in the same town as the mum as it would be much cheaper and easier and all round less stress to maintain contact with the DCs whilst they are young. If he is prepared to do this and support the mum and get a functioning co-parenting relationship going, eventually (and time flies) he will have the trust of the kids/mum for them to fly to the uk to spend extended time periods eg school hols with him.
These sorts of arrangements are what many of us with foreign ex/partners are doing/working towards. It’s what I meant in my previous post about putting the kids at the centre of it all.

Almost every week doesn't sound as though he sees them that much really. Why not every week, or several times a week?

Why would she need to apply for a “post-Brexit visa”?? If she was on a marriage visa then she would not be an EU national. Then Brexit has nothing to do with her - no need to apply for a “post-Brexit visa” - what is that by the way?

Or she is an EU national and she hasn't applied for settled status. In that case she Never needed any visa to stay in the UK.

Which one is it, OP?

And the fact that the mother earns a little over the limit to qualify for free school meals but the child is in a private school?!

Up to Y2 children don’t need to pay for their lunches in state schools.

You said you were foreign yourself but now the man in question is British - must be since his children are British. So how is he related to you, OP?

Ok OP. I have helped my DH defend a petition to remove his children from the UK to go and live with her new husband abroad.

We did not use a lawyer.
I looked at the statement of reasons why the mother thought this was a good idea. I answered each reason with a counter reason as to why thie move would be a bad idea.

You have to be very very thorough.

Some ideas.

Look at the schooling on offer and compare it to expected outcomes in the uk system.

Look at the reality of the 'best interests' of the move that the mother is suggesting. Do they add up ? For example ; if the argument is for more family support- is that realistic. Are GPS actually free to do this. Or do they work full time. ?

My DH ex suggested 'Skype' or 'FaceTime' would replace EOW access. Judge did not agree. At second hearing advised that IF he were to allow it, she would have to fund return trips to the UK every holiday . For a minimum of one month in the summer and the entire Christmas and Easter holidays. As well as agreeing to half term visits from their father .

Cafcass interviewed children both at our house and at ex wife's house.
Recommended they NOT be taken abroad as it would damage the father child relationship.
The judge agreed.

There is a strange thing with your friends situation.
Why has he not been awarded overnights. He applied for 50/50 contact, which was refused , however he would have been given a MINIMUM of EOW Friday-Sunday . No overnights is very strange and usually indicates some concerns with his parenting.

I don't know why lots of posts mention maintenance. Anyone who knows anything about the Child Arrangements process knows that Maintenance has ABSOLUTELY NO BEARING on these issues. Children are not pay per view. It is about the child's RIGHT to have a relationship with both parents.

I think people were mentioning maintenance because the op was singing the classic the children are his whole life song. People wanted her to smell the coffee and see how he looks like a very part time Disney Dad who talks the talk. I'm not sure anyone was suggesting the court would be interested.

Well people are being ridiculous demanding that this dad needs to get a house here for his children to stay in on visits, plus a home in the country they are being moved to, plus fly out every other weekend to visit them, plus pay maintenance just to prove that he's a fit father. Come on. How many of you could afford to do that? Why should a parent have to do that? So the mum can move to another country and start making a new life for herself while the dad has to try and find 2 homes, plus maintenance plus flights every other weekend?

You get different suggestions from different posters Tequila, that's the way this site works.🤷‍♀️ I don't think this father will be bother opposing the move, so it's moot anyway.

I get that. I just don't understand how so.many.people can think it's at all reasonable to demand that 1 parent has to buy 2 homes, pay maintenance and fly 4 hours each way twice a month just to somehow prove they are a decent parent?

Only low income families get free school meals in NI, they're not free for all

How many actual posters on this thread have said that he should buy 2 homes, pay maintenance and fly 4 hours each way twice a month?

How many actual posters on this thread have said that he should buy 2 homes, pay maintenance and fly 4 hours each way twice a month?

I think the only person to combine all of those suggestions in one post is Tequila Plates

I don't actually many have (if any) have even suggested two homes or flights twice a month.

People have suggested rented a suitable flat here or there.
People have suggested him working there
People have suggested him paying maintenance - I am not sure why this is put in the list of impossible suggestions.

I am still trying to get my head round I have enough money to support the grandparents to get a visa to live here but not to rent a house where the children can stay or to pay a lawyer or to pay the 15 pounds needed for the school meals that should be free.

I reckon it was the wife who at 8 months preg walked in on him banging someone else.

Wow! Sounds to me like this father left a well paying job to retrain, thus avoiding paying meaningful maintenance, just at the time the children's costs were most expensive! Nursery fees in London would be a minimum of £1000 a month. In my view the father should be paying half of that. Rather than £7 a week on benefits. Many families I know save up before starting a family for the nursery fees to allow their careers to keep going...

Lots of men want 50/50 when the kids are older and can look after themselves. Thus avoiding the nappies, sleepless nights, time off work for illnesses etc. Incidentally once contact is 50/50 no maintenance is then payable. Sounds like the father knows exactly what he is doing
I'd imagine the "nanny" is what many of my London based friends use - a lady who will.do pick ups/ child care/ cleaning for £10 an hour to cover the end of the school/ nursery day / evening meetings as mum has no family nearby can babysit. This doesn't indicate the mother is so rich she doesn't need any assistance with child care costs/ child maintaince. It indicates she wants to keep her professional job going..
If the father was spending 3 days a week in the mothers home country just a few years ago, why is it now so distant and flights so expensive? It just doesn't add up..