prevent children from relocating abroad with the other parent

[reallywanttohelp]

NC for this thread.

A (male) friend of mine had a brief and unhappy marriage (now divorced for a couple of years) and two children from it. The mother of the children is originally not from the UK and had asked the family court for a permission to relocate with their children back to her own country (non EU, not English speaking, and very underdeveloped).

His children are his life (without any exaggeration, he is talking about them all the time), he sees them almost every week, and has a very close and loving relationship. They go on the day trips, to zoos, parks and museums, and are really happy together. He also plans to apply for at least a 50/50 custody once they are a little bit older and the court takes their views into account.

He will have a direct access barrister representing him during the process (which will cost him all his savings), but he is currently retraining for a new career and does not earn anything so cannot afford a solicitor on a day-to-day basis. The mother has a professional job (they met through work) and is reasonably well-off, it is not the case that she struggles in any way - a homeowner, has a cleaner / nanny / dog walker, able to afford nursery fees etc.

He asked me to help with all possible arguments why the children should not be relocating abroad (they spent almost their life in the UK, despite being born in that country). Not from the legal perspective, it will be the barrister's job to convert them into the statement for the court, but rather from the children's perspective. He is very distraught now and not thinking straight, this application was a complete surprise for him.

@starlight456 I think that children should be given more respect. And asked what they want - from an early age. Right now - alot of mothers do what they want - and do not ask their children, or think that their children are even entitled to have an opinion.

I knew what I wanted at age 4,5,6.

No one cares though about what the fathers or children want. People are basically at the mercy of the mother until they are 18.

Until the law improves father's rights.

angell84, what happened to you and your family is very different to what's happening here. Your pain comes through loud and clear. But this man is not your father.

The man in the OP has his DC living nearby and has done bare minimum parenting. He considers being a parent as optional. Something he can do for a couple of hours a week and maybe he'll do more of sometime in the future.

The children's mother doesnt have that option. 7 days a week she has to parent. All the time. Because the children are living and learning and growing every day. They need a parent right now, not sometime in the future. She is that parent. She doesnt get the option of cutting her hours or deferment.

This man may "love" his children, but he does not care for them, he plays with them. And he does not prioritise them. Hell he couldn't even be bothered to find the info he needed on the net. He had the OP do it for him.

angell84 your anger at your mother here comes through strongly.

However you are wrong on one important point - there is no such thing as “fathers rights” or “mothers rights”; only the right of the child to have a healthy relationship with their family. The default nowadays is pretty much 50:50 as a starting point, with negotiation from there based on age of children etc.

I don’t deny there are some mothers who take the piss and use their children as a weapon against their ex; however there are far more fathers out there who make zero effort to fight and are content to blame their “psycho ex” for everything.

The OP in this case has made clear That the father has had the funds to pursue court; so he could have requested increased contact many times before this moment. The fact that he hasn’t speaks volumes.

A 4/5/6 year old doesn’t know lots of information .

My Ds (12) does not know his dad strangled me whilst in my arms as a baby, he doesn’t know his dad threatened to kill himself and kill my Ds aswell .

I am not saying this is the case in this case or yours just simply your experience of one person does not define everyone’s experience.

This also applies to children refusing to go to contact they don’t realise the long term consequences of that .

It should be on both sides what is in the best interests of the child. We really don’t know enough here to know what is in the best interests of the child

@Dyrne of course I am angry at my mother. I have been angry my whole life.

My father killed himself.

I know the pain of a parent taking children to another country. It should never happen. It doesn't matter how much effort the father makes, his children should be in the same country as him

That is why I really urge the OP to tell her friend to fight. Fight, fight, fight to keep his children near him. Don't give up

At everyone. If your parent took you abroad, refused to let you see the other parent for years at a time,

And your other parent killed himself over it

I am sure that you would have the same life - long burning anger that I do!

Families should NOT be split up. There is no empathy on this thread.

My mum took me to another country and I went back and spent every summer with my dad. I dont remember any different.

I too lived in a different country from my dad. I just went to him for half the holidays.

But, he did not have any mental illness, he did not shirk his financial responsibilities and leave my mother facing all the responsibilities of bringing us up by herself. Though he can be an arsenal, so I understand why my mother did it.

Arsehole ^ 🙄

H could go to a solicitor for help with the written statement if he does not want to pay for a barrister in court.
Do his parents see the children? Do they want to help with costs?

I understand that you are very upset @angell84 but you are definitely projecting here. The man described in the OP is not your father. The ex-wife is not your mother.

Have you had counselling about this? I think you'd really benefit from it. You are clearly extremely angry and upset many years later.

I agree with the previous poster . Whilst really difficult for you ( you sound like you really could do with counselling to process it) it is anecdotal.

My Ds lives 10 miles away from his dad and not seen him in 10 years. So geography makes no difference in my case however anecdotal.

It has been said numerous times it should be in the best interests in the child.

You are the only person on this thread which with minimal knowledge of this family

Angel, it's clear that you need help processing your childhood. You should check out the Stately Homes thread.

angell84 Absolutely no one is condoning the situation that you have experienced. It sounds awful and I’m so sorry you had to go through that.

I am so f€&king angry at mothers like this. At the absolute selfishness of them. I volunteer in the area (trying to improve fathers rights), and there are many mothers like this.

They say the same thing every time:

He does nothing, he makes no effort with the child, I do everything.

Newsflash. It does not matter who does more for the child, love is not something that can be bought. It is a crazy and selfish argument.! It is like a grandmother saying , "I do more for my grandchild, than his grandfather does, so he should love me more".

Does that make any sense?
Isn't is a crazy and hurtful comment? And selfish? Love me more, love me more!

What is ALWAYS at the crux of these cases,

Is that the mother gets jealous of the children loving the father, and she wants to own and control the children. She wants total control.

It is incredibly sad. And it is something that alot of women need to look at in themselves.

Your children - are not things that you own. They are human beings

angell84 please take your hatred of women elsewhere. I have sympathy for you for your personal experiences however that is no excuse for hijacking a thread with your rhetoric - what you have described is completely different from the situation outlined by the OP.

Angel, you are angry at a lot of things to do with your childhood. I urge you to find appropriate support and help. Me-railing Mnet threads (you have done the same on at least one other thread that I know) isnt on and isnt going to help.

My children’s father has abandoned them. No contact. But in theory I have to ask him if I can take them on holiday. Is that reasonable.

My DS is spending midterm with his dad in the country his dad moved to. It can and does work where the father wants to be part of the childs life.

This man wont fight. He didnt before, he isnt now and he wont in the future. Much better for these children to be with a living extended family and the mun be supported.

@angell84 This is not the place for 'fathers' rights activism'. Nor is any of this helping you as far as I can tell.

The fact is that parental love is about reliability and the practical doing of things. It doesn't really matter for the best interests of the child whether a parent claims to love the child if they aren't reliably there or able to care for that child adequately. Unreliable and inadequate parenting is hugely damaging for children. Extremely abusive parents generally say they live their children, but it just is not enough.

Your hatred of women comes across very strongly in your post. I am very sorry that you had a difficult upbringing but I think some therapy would really help you to understand and process your fathers' death. Simply blaming your mother is not helping you here, nor is projecting your anger all over every situation where a father doesn't get exactly what he says he wants (but may not actually live up to).

I know the pain of a parent taking children to another country. It should never happen. It doesn't matter how much effort the father makes, his children should be in the same country as him

So the father has more rights than the mother? He can do nothing but the mother should make sure the child is always available for him?

I moved to a different country to my DD's father when she was 3. It was the right decision for my career and with his agreement. He is not in the UK now and I am i now in my 3rd country since I left the UK.
All 3 of us would be much less happy if we had all stayed in the UK.

Jeez angel. Im sorry that you are so damaged, but your dads suicide is not your mothers fault, and its not other womens fault. You have turned into a misogynist.

in the Netherlands parents are not allowed to move away with their children without the other parents permission even to somewhere else within the Netherlands though if deemed in the interests of the child the courts may give permission but the person moving will have to show to the court that contact will be facilitated by them and that travelling times and costs are still reasonable
personally I think once kids are involved neither the RP or NRP should move further than is comfortable journey ( ie EOW is simple) from where the child is habitually resident,

I have never heard a court ruling that stopped the NRP leaving the country because access to children.

I’ve been through this myself, as the mother leaving uk to go to another non EU country with my three children. I won and understand why.
Firstly, to have prevented me from going, my ex would’ve have needed to apply for custody of our children. At least 50/50. Your friend needs to do that now. It’s not about money, it’s about being there for his children. He then needs to express to the court that he is more than happy for his children to live with him full time should his ex wish to leave the uk. His case needs to be ALL about the children, what’s best for them, emotionally, educationally etc. It’s NEVER about the money as far as courts are concerned. If his ex goes to court saying how much better off financially she is, the court will close their ears. Depending on ages of children, CAFCAS will get involved. They evaluate the well being of the children overall.
Your friend needs to participate in their lives, ie school plays, pick ups, Gp, dentist, etc. Not just leave it all to their mum.
I know you said he sees them almost every week, but the reality is, the mum has them and works the remainder of the time. Taking kids to zoo or swimming is not parenting or participating in parenting his children.
My ex, did non of this, barely visited kids, offered me no support. All he did was attack and then buy the kids days out every now and then to show how wonderful a father he was.
The mother will need to secure a home, a job, schooling. She needs to demonstrate it’s in the children’s best interests to move their, ie, she will have family support.