Land dispute

[zarah21]

Desperately need advice!

My dad died 9 years ago with no will. He had nothing but a piece of land co shared (as tenants in common), with another chap, let's say Bob. Bob didn't use the land anymore. Only my dad had keys. When my dad passed, Bob sold his half to Bill, via a "gentlemen handshake" and Bill quickly broke the locks, put up new fencing, felled the trees, tarmaced it etc.

My sibling never applied for probate, saying dad had no assets, also never changed land registry. Still in dad's name.

I don't know where to start....

Do we apply for probate to amend registry?.. Or could I still lose the land regardless, given Bill can now apply for Adverse possession? Would a land registry change to our names strengthen any counter claim?

Bill tried to give us £3k for the land. We declined, it's worth way more. We asked Bill to pay rent, he declined, he was already on the land, so why would he? He said we could try get him off land but the said he would charge us for the felled trees, 6k he said! We felt backed into a corner and have been sitting ducks ever since.

We are at 9 years now, and very worried we may lose the only thing dad had. We just never knew how to keep it without spending lots of money to get Bill off the land.

This is the most stressful situation. And it's. Going on for years now. Don't get me wrong, day to day living is normal, but every so often, I feel crippling anxiety by the weight of it all.

What can I do? Please help.

What was your plan for how Bill and your sibling would also be able to use the land? Or was your plan to waltz in 10 years on and take it all over for yourself? Tbh, you sound very passive in all of this. Blaming your sibling for not managing the situation when you acknowledge they were ill after your father passed. You absolutely could have managed logistics yourself.

If I was Bill or your sibling, I’d be annoyed at you popping up a decade later and upending what seemed to be a settled agreement.

Sibling wouldn't allow me to have any part in sorting affairs. They got all dad's possessions. I was allowed access to his flat once it was gutted. I took 4 woolly jumpers and some photographs.

I offered plenty of times, I made a solicitor appointment in 2017 that they didn't show up to.

Sibling initally made contact with me via mum, saying we need to discuss dad's land. The train people need our signatures as people with interest in it. Sibling actually, ridiculously, thought Bill would pay rent, for land he is already on. When he refused, back in 2015, sinling tried to get him off land.

I didn't want to be too personal about sibling, but we didn't know they were struggling. Illness was drink related, and very secretive.

I am also annoyed they had this so called agreement and I didn't know. I emailed sibling over last few days various questions, mentioning adverse possession, and it they had me believe this 10 year rule malarkey I was advising of, was first they heard of it.

... I've been up all night, worried about things that actually, being in the know, would have alleviate my stress.

Finally, why should my sibling be doing all this behind my back? Meeting Bill, getting cash in hand and lying to me. Outright lies when I ask if they have received money.... Yet I'm in the wrong?

I'm not piping up 10 years later. Like I said I tried to sort it and they dragged their heels. They don't want to go through probate for a plot of land that some dude is already on.

My plan originally, before he broke the locks was an urban farm of sorts. Veg patch, bee hives etc. And a place to store a campervan. Bob never used land nor even had a key. Bob asked us to buy it, so really, we would have had the 100% had sibling had actually replied to Bob's letters. We agreed we would pay him for his half. Sibling never actually made contact. I was not geographically local. And you know, sibling appointed themselves as executor, of sorts.

To claim adverse possession, he has to be occupying it without the owner's consent. If Bob is still the legal owner, Bill has Bob's consent. If Bill is the owner, he can't claim adverse possession. That won't necessarily stop him trying, but there is no way he can legitimately get 100% through adverse possession.

It is clearly worth something. His offer gives it a value of £10k if the £5k was to cover both your share and your siblings share, £20k if it was only your siblings share. You haven't said how big the plot is or what part of the country you are in but, given the things that you say have been placed on it, it may be worth a lot more than that.

I can't see any way you would end up with nothing. Your father's estate owns 50% of the land. Since no-one has applied for letters of administration, that is still the case regardless of any conversations or money passed between Bill and your sibling. No-one has the legal authority to sell your father's share. You are therefore entitled to 25% of the value of the land. And Bill can't claim the cost of felling trees or anything else he has done to the land from you.

Don't allow your sibling to block you. You don't need their consent. And don't allow Bill to bully you. Follow the steps set out by @Another2Cats. That will protect your interests at minimal cost.

Hi folks,

Not much of an update from me. DS made contact with me and I asked her to do hmrc form to get ball rolling, being privy to all info needed. She seemed very eager to help me.

Roll on today, and she says nothing stopping me from doing it. Weeks later ffs.

Bill calls me every Friday now. After an initial chat, I havent picked up since, as I'm not sure what to say. He wants a figure from me, that we'll except.

But I was going down the route of retaining ownership. Surely you can still own something 50/50 without needing to be "on it"?

I suspect he is trying to gain evidence that he is trying to communicate, and I'm unwilling, if we end up in court, one fine day.

ADV2 is done.

Yes, I had a limited time frame and nothing much happened. Feeling yet again, lost.

She did send me a letter from his solicitors, to her, in 2016 saying he was trying to buy the land off Bob and needed to facilitate that..... So perhaps, at least, that's better from a date perspective but not for willingness to help.

"But I was going down the route of retaining ownership. Surely you can still own something 50/50 without needing to be "on it"?"

Indeed you can. So it would appear that Bob has a 50% share and you and your DS have 25% each.

DS can sell her 25% to Bob if she wishes but that still won't give Bob full ownership of the site as you still own 25%. So I doubt he would be interested in buying just your DS's 25% share.

But don't forget that you have as much right to enter the land as Bob. Next time he calls perhaps pick up and tell him that you want a set of keys for the padlocks that he has put on the land.

Oh I really hope Bob doesn't get to keep it.

Update folks.

My ADV2 form was rejected. Wordage below for anyone interested.

*does anyone know if I can reapply, with more information, such as, I am applying for letters of administration.

*does anyone know, if I am registered for property updates, will they flag when an application of adverse possession has been made?

Struggling to comprehend this, as I thought being the registered proprietors beneficiary, would have been enough to be advised.

*does anyone know what they mean by applying for a restriction?

Thank you in advance

"Your application in Form ADV2 has now been considered and
unfortunately this is not an appropriate application. An ADV2
application is an application for a person who has an interest in a
registered estate such as an equitable chargee or a trustee in
bankruptcy to be notified is an application for adverse possession is
lodged. Your current application has therefore been cancelled and
any fees paid will be refunded to you in due course.
You state in your application that you have become entitled to the
legal estate in the property as you are the beneficiaries of DF by way of the laws of intestacy. It is not clear from your
application whether you have applied for letters of administration to
support this.
Any application to amend the registered proprietors of the above
property will need to be done by way of a formal transfer between
the remaining registered property "Bob" and yourselves.
Alternatively, you may be able to protect your interest by applying to
enter a restriction against the above property. Our Practice Guide
Number 19 contains further guidance on third party rights and
interests.
Due to the complexity of this matter you may wish to seek
independent legal advice on how to proceed."

Also, if this doesn't go through, how on earth will an objection to Adv Possession, based on same reasons?

Ooof, a lot to unpack.

It's not adverse possession. Bill believes he owns Bob's share, it just hasn't been officially transferred to him. You cannot adversely possess land you have an interest in.

I hear ya, but we know that's what he intends to do. I don't know how he will word it, etc, but that's certainly his intentions. Knowing that, I didn't want to miss the application, when it arrives.

I don't even know what my objection will be like, if I did get the opportunity; if I can't even get my ADV2 through as "the proprietors daughter and beneficiary" , there's no chance for me, is there?

My anxiety is through the roof.

You need advice from a conveyancing solicitor.

Echoing @NigelHarmansNewWife . No solicitor is going to unpick that for you on MN.

You could try posting on MSE Martyn Lewis website forums , there is a rep from land registry who often picks up these difficult queries. I'd try in Death, Funerals and Probate as this is linked to a Probate matter, that person does post on there when tagged

I don't think you understand what adverse possession means. I get that you think someone who isn't entitled to your father's share of the land is using it and asserting he owns the whole thing, not just Bob's share which he was given, but that isn't what adverse possession is.