Land dispute

[zarah21]

Desperately need advice!

My dad died 9 years ago with no will. He had nothing but a piece of land co shared (as tenants in common), with another chap, let's say Bob. Bob didn't use the land anymore. Only my dad had keys. When my dad passed, Bob sold his half to Bill, via a "gentlemen handshake" and Bill quickly broke the locks, put up new fencing, felled the trees, tarmaced it etc.

My sibling never applied for probate, saying dad had no assets, also never changed land registry. Still in dad's name.

I don't know where to start....

Do we apply for probate to amend registry?.. Or could I still lose the land regardless, given Bill can now apply for Adverse possession? Would a land registry change to our names strengthen any counter claim?

Bill tried to give us £3k for the land. We declined, it's worth way more. We asked Bill to pay rent, he declined, he was already on the land, so why would he? He said we could try get him off land but the said he would charge us for the felled trees, 6k he said! We felt backed into a corner and have been sitting ducks ever since.

We are at 9 years now, and very worried we may lose the only thing dad had. We just never knew how to keep it without spending lots of money to get Bill off the land.

This is the most stressful situation. And it's. Going on for years now. Don't get me wrong, day to day living is normal, but every so often, I feel crippling anxiety by the weight of it all.

What can I do? Please help.

Even if sibling really didn't take any money, he claims he has a witness that saw money changed hands.

@zarah21 but if that's a barefaced lie, and I assume it is, will he be so blasé as to lie to the police? He thinks he can manipulate you. Police is a different matter, especially if your sibling would swear to having not had any money off him.

@zarah21 and even if this witness exists would they lie for him? In court?

He really sucks you in, I feel I may have been recorded. As he said "do you think this call end on good terms" and I'm like, yeah, yeah, actually no, I can't say that yet.

Gosh, it's awful.

He says, the initial figure he offered was based on a valuation he has (?!!!) more than, or move it or something. I was like, "still, anyone selling would get multiple valuations maybe and not base it on one"

*He claims, he will consider a sum I ask for, and sell with caveats that he can never build, nor let the next buyer build (I said I don't think you can do that - he said he could add a covenant)

*He also said any compensation from railway, he will agree to pass on.

*he also said son's equipment is moving from site. So I said, what you doing with it then. Gardening he said. I said, this is a lot of work and effort and money for a garden.

Right?

I'm in a "what's the point" mood?

Fight it out. Solicitors. All those fees. You know, I was quoted £285 per hour yesterday. Imagine... The hours!! And for what? He is already on it, 50% is his, via a gents agreement. The other chap, Bob, when contacted via rail etc, says speak to Bill. Bill is in charge.

Well if there was no cash receipt then no proof either way ! So he's on a sticky wicket too

If you win you will be able to recover your legal costs from Bill. His behaviour makes me wonder if the land has significant value. Don't let the bully win.

@prh47bridge Is that without permission or without knowledge? Or either?
would it be sensible to send bill a letter immediately to say that OP/sister know Bill is using land and that they are giving permission for the next few months? Then he doesn’t have the time without permission to claim adverse possession? Definitely one for a lawyer tho! He certainly can’t claim without knowledge!

... And if I lose, I'm effed.

Any judge would be the same as another commenter, why has it taken us so long?
But my sibling is... Devious at best. We haven't spoke.

Regardless, I can't do this anymore.

I told him, I've spent days speaking to people, working out paperwork, etc and etc, and it's all for nothing, if we could just come up with an agreement. I have children now, I'm busy, it's been 9 years since dad passed and mum guilt is real.

He clung to that really, agreeing that I'm busy, a mum, a life to live etc etc. (I said too much, but I'm emotional and invested)

He wants an agreement and you know, so do I. Before the 10 years is up and I lose all the land for nothing.

He wants it to be a garden, I had similar vision with bee hives etc. I told him that.
Also, a place for my campervan and he went quiet.

I recall one summer, they used it for a mini festival, must have been his son, tents, music... Etc. Private, small event.

anyway...

Funnily enough, he is trying to talk down railway stuff. Saying it won't happen. I said it's happening this summer, he said nah, government has cut funding etc etc.

Ooh that’s interesting…

@DorotheaDiamond he may of course be lying he has bought Bob's interest and may be trying to go down the adverse possession route. A letter to him stating the OP's interest and asserting that Bill has no right to occupy unless he can prove his interest will scupper that.

surely this would mean that either bill is there with the Owners permission (no adverse possession if with permission) or that he’s admitting to conspiring to defraud your fathers estate ?

Ether way bill or bob has a right to be on the land one of them owns 1/2 of it

its not coming across that way

if bob is happy for bill to be on the land I’m not really sure how u have the final say

if there no probate and will sorted I really wouldn’t of thought you had any claim or say in it
ultimately the estate/land could go to the crown

at the moment it has nothing to do with you

@zarah21

You cannot claim adverse possession of registered land if the owners object. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/adverse-possession-of-registered-land/practice-guide-4-adverse-possession-of-registered-land

The key is to make sure Land Registry has your email for correspondence. This is hard to intercept.

I would also send Bill written notification (email) that you own a % of the land and that he is only using it with your permission as co-owner. If I were you I would go and enter the land and take timestamped photos to show you on the property.

I know solicitors cost ££, because you are paying for their expertise. Do you have legal cover on your house or car insurance? If so, try contacting them to see if they will assist.

Also I worked with this guy many many years ago - might be worth dropping him an email as this would seem to be in his area!

https://www.johnantell.co.uk/

alternatively just went through a land registry issue with www.thrings.com who were very good / thorough but not cheap!

probably sensible to get a land surveyor in to value it then see how much ££ you want to throw at it!

I'm not trying to get Bill off the land. I'm trying to ensure he doesn't take it all by adverse possession, while I get through paperwork my sibling should have done 9 years ago, to put us on the title.

Even if it was true your sibling would only be able to "Sell" their 25% share of the land, not your 25%.

Without permission. However, the situation here is that either Bill is part owner or he has Bob's permission. Either way, Bill cannot claim adverse possession, although given the number of other dodgy things he seems to have done he might try.

Without probate, neither OP nor her sibling could sell their interest in the land to Bill. If probate had been obtained, OP's sibling could have sold the land to Bill as executor but would have had to split the proceeds with OP (and could be personally liable if the price Bill paid was not a true valuation).

Bill might try to claim adverse possession, but he cannot legally do so. If he owns 50% of the property, he cannot claim the rest of it by adverse possession. If he doesn't, he is on the land with Bob's permission so cannot claim adverse possession. However, given the number of dodgy things he seems to have done, I wouldn't put it past him to try.

What's my way out of this mess?

Do I take a "token" and not object any procession claim? Nor do probate. Or anything else.

Or let it run it's course and he'll get 100% regardless?

Sibling says it's worth "nothing" he was going to give her £5k, £1k of which they already have.

I'm in a hole, where I could do all this stuff and realistically, get nothing anyway.

I mean, look, we are 4 days into my saga and so much has come to light.

So earlier in the thread the subject of you getting the land valued came up, and there was a suggestion that it could be valued without the valuer having access to it, if the valuer knows the size, where it is, type of land etc.
Have you looked into this @zarah21 ?

At the moment you don't seem to know if it's far too valuable to let go of, or almost worthless. You can't get a sense of how to proceed without at least a ballpark figure of its value, surely?

Honestly the more you find out the messier it becomes! I feel for you OP.
I'd personally go down the give me something and I'll go away route as the other routes seem very long and potentially expensive.

Have you done a rough online valuation ? There's a number of online calculator things that maybe can give you a rough idea. But honestly my DP had some land that someone wanted to buy and it was all a lot less than my DP wanted in the end. I think land varies a lot depending on who wants it

"What's my way out of this mess?"

I would suggest.

Step 1 - Spend £40 and notify Land Registry on form ADV2 of your interest in the land. This will ensure that if Bill tries to get adverse possession then you will be notified and can object. Once you have objected then Land Registry write back to Bill and says don't be such a CF, you aren't getting the land.

You can then sit back and not worry so much after that.

When you are ready to do so, you move on to:

Step 2 - Your dad's share of the property is still part of his estate and cannot be bought or sold until administration is complete. So your sister could not have sold your dad's share of the property to Bill (if she claims that she did then she's defrauding Bill if anything).

So, then get on with probate. It costs £300 to apply for probate but you can get help with paying fees if you are on a low income or benefits and savings of less than £4,250. See here:

https://www.gov.uk/get-help-with-court-fees

Step 3 - Depends on how you feel about things, but there is no hurry for this at all. You assert your rights to enter the land. In the same way that Bill could enter the land after he bought it from Bob (if he did, in fact, buy it) once you are the registered proprietor then you can enter the land any time you want.
.

So, basically, spend £40 and send off the form this weekend and the rest can wait until you feel ready to deal with it.