Land dispute

[zarah21]

Desperately need advice!

My dad died 9 years ago with no will. He had nothing but a piece of land co shared (as tenants in common), with another chap, let's say Bob. Bob didn't use the land anymore. Only my dad had keys. When my dad passed, Bob sold his half to Bill, via a "gentlemen handshake" and Bill quickly broke the locks, put up new fencing, felled the trees, tarmaced it etc.

My sibling never applied for probate, saying dad had no assets, also never changed land registry. Still in dad's name.

I don't know where to start....

Do we apply for probate to amend registry?.. Or could I still lose the land regardless, given Bill can now apply for Adverse possession? Would a land registry change to our names strengthen any counter claim?

Bill tried to give us £3k for the land. We declined, it's worth way more. We asked Bill to pay rent, he declined, he was already on the land, so why would he? He said we could try get him off land but the said he would charge us for the felled trees, 6k he said! We felt backed into a corner and have been sitting ducks ever since.

We are at 9 years now, and very worried we may lose the only thing dad had. We just never knew how to keep it without spending lots of money to get Bill off the land.

This is the most stressful situation. And it's. Going on for years now. Don't get me wrong, day to day living is normal, but every so often, I feel crippling anxiety by the weight of it all.

What can I do? Please help.

The starting place is to get a copy of the Land Register and Filed Plan. This only costs about £3.00 https://www.gov.uk/search-property-information-land-registry

There are then two things you can do for free. The first is to set up a property alert https://www.gov.uk/guidance/property-alert.

The second is to add your email address to the contact information. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/updating-registered-owners-contact-address You can have up to 3 addresses, an email is far harder to intercept than snail mail.

You probably then need to do probate so you can then have the land transferred into your name. I would advise getting legal advice, but appreciate it can be expensive. It should be relatively straightforward to do probate yourself and then transfer the land into your name.

Just in case this gets deleted Money Saving Expert has a forum with posters who can advise you how to do probate plus Land Registry have an official account and do provide advice.

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/categories/deaths-funerals-probate

Ignore what that person said, you are not "screwed".

To stop Bill getting his hands on it then send off the form and the Land Registry will get in touch with you if he tries anything.

Forgetting that issue for the moment, if the land is owned equally then Bill (or Bob) owns 50% and you and your sister own the other 50% between you.

Just as Bill was entitled to enter the property after he purchased Bob's share, you are also entitled to enter the property as well. Bill cannot keep you out. I would suggest writing to Bill and demanding a key. You can also place your own lock on the property if you wish.

I have no idea what Bill is using the land for but you are as equally entitled as he is to use the property for whatever reason you wish.

Others have said to just give the land away, I would very much disagree with this. There is no cost to retaining the land and it may have some use in the future.

You are mistaken. It is 12 years for unregistered land and 10 years for registered land.

You can't claim adverse possession of land you already have an interest in. Bill cannot adversely possess your dad's share. You should get legal advice and probate.

Get the land valued ASAP.

I'm in a slightly similar situation where my mum died in Feb intestate and she owned a piece of land at the back of her property, classed as woodland.

My estranged brother believes he owns this land as his two sons are running a business on it (without planning permission and now without permission of my late mum, it stopped on her death).
He doesn't own it but hasn't stopped him launching into litigation regarding ownership.

A very long story cut short as this would be a thread in its own right, there is no claim for Adverse Possession, and the land has been valued at 4 times what mum paid for it 7 years ago.

it is very likely that your land is much more valuable than you realise particularly with the relaxation of planning rules.

I hope you get it sorted x

On paper, Bob and my dad own the land. Bill, to the land registry, is new to them, they won't know Bill gave Bob money. It was a gents agreement. Even offering us money, it's all verbal, I believe.

I have pictures of the land on my old phone, when Bill let me in when he first took it. I'm going to get it out for date purposes.

I realise I have longer than 3 months, that's when dad passed, but not when Bill took over.

I'm going to struggle to get access to get it valued. That's my stumbling block.

I will request keys from Bill, but he is going to tell me to take a hike.

As the land is jointly owned, you have the right to access. Bill cannot refuse to allow you onto your own land.

You don't need to request the keys, but even if he refuses you can access the land. Cut his lock off with bolt cutters or an angle grinder. Replace with your own lock and give him a key. Obviously give him the key after you've done what you need to.

@zarah21 have you actually downloaded the title register and plan for the land from the gov.uk Land Registry website? It'll cost you £6. Assuming the land is registered.

i doubt they even need to access the land to value it. it'll be a measurement from GPS and average price for e.g brownfield in Y area

Yes, it's is still in my dad's and Bob's name.

I have just spoken to the railway folk, they want access to the land from all interested parties, and Bob is apparently amicable, but refuses to sign anything with us included.

I guess, that would scupper his claim for sole ownership if he is on a document with us.
At least we know what his game is.

My sibling is dragging feet again. Doesn't want to do probate. Claims didn't need to due to lack of assets. I have said you needed to for this land alone.
I can't get it valued without access, to even start probate process in good time. I also don't know his savings, or lack of, form the Hmrc folk. And I need that number to continue.

It's over, isn't it? Eurghhh

Is that right? OK, so who is "they" an estate agent? Sorry.

A valuer may will almost certainly do it from desktop and information available from land registry, ie size, I wouldn't worry too much about that but the other poster is right, you can't be excluded from acessing the land.

It's not over, far from it but start with asking for a valuation so you know roughly the value of the asset you are dealing with.

Get probate. You have the right to get a valuation without that anyway.

Bob needs to register his ownership. Until he does I don't really understand why anyone is entertaining him - you've basically got his word that he has an interest in this land. He's an arrogant fool to think he doesn't need to do that.

What is happening on the land? What is it being used for ?
Any land agent such as Savills or a commercial property agent will give you an appraisal for probate purposes.

Apply for letters of administration by next week, ring a valuer today, start the ball rolling x

Is this something sibling needs to do, as has death certificate, bank account information etc?

And online or via solicitor?

I tried to go online but need something from hmrc. So I'm stuck.

I'm involved in an adverse claim at the moment and it's not as simple as 10 years and its ours. We are having to prove that the old owners haven't accessed it or maintained only for 10 years. (And they are denying ownership!).

If you've been trying to access the land, they might not have a claim.

Bill sounds like a real chancer. Not a registered owner and he's put his own lock on it and tarmacked it! Something very dodgy about him not putting Bob's share into his own name.

I highly doubt he got a licence to fell the trees. Once you've started the process to put the land into your own name report him.
Tree felling: overview - GOV.UK
Report suspected illegal tree felling - GOV.UK
What is he using the land for? I think you should contact the local council and tell them if he is operating a business from it or living there.

You can order copies of the death certificate to send to people (mostly you can scan and email).
Order a birth, death, marriage or civil partnership certificate - GOV.UK
Certificates cost £12.50 and are sent 4 days after you apply.
If you do not have a GRO index reference number, you’ll have to pay £3.50 extra for each search. Certificates are sent 15 working days after you apply.
If you need the certificate sooner, you can use the priority service for £38.50. It’ll be sent the next working day if you order by 4pm.
Extra copies are the same price.

Did your sibling close bank accounts? Cancel passport, stop pension? I think you have to assume a lot of that stuff wasn't done.

...so Bill told us the boundary trees were above legal height and he had to. And he would charge us if we got him off the land.
He is a smooth talker, he even said he would put a bench on the land, for me to remember my dad. (pah!)
Trying not to"out myself" will info, but he is using it to store expensive equipment in a container, for a family members job. Instead of them paying rent to store the stuff elsewhere.

Sibling did close bank accounts, tell relevant people... Belive it or not, they had a solicitor through this process... Of not actually doing what they should have.

Could sibling actually be in trouble? I'm thinking of she is worried of doing stuff without paperwork, she won't want to do probate.

We are currently having to apply for probate with regard to a piee of co-owned land so it is possible. IN out situation my dad is the executor and beneficiary of a will but the lady in question never applied for probate when her husband died and.

So because he died before a certain date there are a few stages that can;t be done online. We have had to fill in a form where we estimate the value of his estate at the time of his death. That has to be posted and we have to wait for a code. Once we get that there will be another form where as J's executor we apply for probate on her behalf for R (who died intestate) If you dad died intestate then you will need to apply on that basis.

One we receive that then we can apply to the land registry to amend the registry using the probate showing that dad is now the owner of that land (in your case it will be co-owners). we cannot sell the land without it.

Question!!

If I send Bill A letter asking for a key for padlock... Should it come from a solicitor? Is email suffice?

Can I just knock on his door and ask?

Do I provide a.. "if I don't get a key within x time, I will be forced to change lock and provide you a new key"