Wrongfully being accused by brother and wife

[ForJoyousDog]

I don't know what to do! My brother has POA for finances for my mother, which he has actioned and now deals with her banking. He and his wife are doing an audit of mum's spending since dad died in 2019. Mum became a recluse after his death, the mobility car had to be returned. I live 750 miles from mum, my brother 12 miles but to help mum I did her grocery shopping online using her debit card. This turned into birthday cards, gifts, hobby materials etc but everything with her authority to use her account and card. My brother and his wife have said that now my brother "has unrestricted access to mum's account and are working closely with the bank as there are suspicious payments that have come out of her account". I have done nothing wrong, certainly not used my mothers bank account as my own but the accusation has been going on since January, the messages I get are hateful, they are relishing trying to destroy me, my husband won't support me because he told me this would happen and he is angry as to how this makes him look. My mother has told my brother that I had authority to do any shopping etc using her card, but it is still going on. I'm not eating, sleeping and my relationship is suffering. What can I do to make this stop does anyone have any ideas please?

Unless the mother has no capacity the power of attorney doesn't take effect surely ? In which case the mother - since it's her money! - is entitled to tell someone else how to spend it !!

AAAAAAAAARGHHH!

See my post above yours. And the many others that have already explained this

As your mother still has capacity I'd suggest she gets her gp to confirm that, revokes the power of attorney - see https://www.gov.uk/power-of-attorney/end and sets up a new POA for you.

Once you need your brother had activated the POA then you should have stopped buying things. However your mother can and should put a stop to this now.

I'm assuming that your mum has handed over her bank card(s)/details willingly?

I had poa for my dad but didn't get into his finances until he went into a care home.

Knew where his stuff was in case I needed it, but that was it!

If your brother accepted financial poa then surely he accepted that he would be doing shopping, paying bills...

You don't get to pick & choose!

I think POA is a bit of a nightmare.

I have it for my very elderly aunt. Her sister also has POA- but is totally uninterested in acting as an attorney and will not deal with anything.

My aunt is hopeless with money. She gives her debit card to numerous people, plus the PIN code, and asks them to do things for her - buy her jumpers, get her £200 in cash, get her a radio, buy her shoes, get her more shopping, buy her fish and chips (and their whole family who she doesn't know). She needs none of these things. At least 6 people have her card numbers and PIN code and she won't have it changed.

She has capacity so can not be stopped but is really reckless. In the last week she has spent £140 in a cafe in her sheltered housing, plus has got £170 in cash, plus has spent £60 on food shopping and got someone to buy her 3 jumpers in Next which have cost £120 + . She is housebound and has no access to anything online. She has given me 25 jumpers in the last week to take to the charity shop and a number still had price tags on them from Next last summer.

She has wasted £36,000 + through her lack of sense and lack of accountability with money since December- on paying care home fees at the same time as her rent on her property, and care fees to retain care at her rented property even though she wasn't using it, weekly hairdressing, weekly chiropody (each £45 a shot), she has left money lying around in the care home and it has been stolen. Now she is in sheltered accommodation and will not lock the door to her flat, ever. She said she wants £180 in cash every week in her purse, plus to use her card in the cafe. There is no talking to her about any of it. She gives people money to buy attention from them. She pays an old neighbour to drive her to the dentist- 1 mile. He charges her £30. She continually gets rid of new belongings and then asks people to take her to buy replacements.

There is no sense to any of it. I have talked to her, made agreements with her and then she just does as she likes. The Sheltered accommodation manager has already spoken to me about her trying to persuade and manipulating staff with money/the card. However, she just sees it as 'needing a bit of help'. She is already paying for all her 'help' through care fees.

I have told her she is allowing people to take advantage of her eg the fish and chips. Her answer was 'Well I want fish and chips and it's the only way I can get them.'

The carers have been very upfront with the manager about her doing this to them- trying to get them to take her card- because she is putting them in a vulnerable position.

When someone does something she doesn't like eg the old neighbour can't take her to the dentist, or old friend doesn't visit, she then complains to absolutely anyone who will listen about all the money she has given him and how he won't help her. 'I've given xxxx more than £300- to drive me to the dentist because he charges me for taking me and it's only a mile each way. And now he won't answer his phone.'

'I've paid for fish and chips for xxxx and his wife and his three step-children every other Tuesday for the last year. It costs me nearly £80 a time and now he hasn't bothered coming to see me for 2 months. I never ever see his wife and the step-children and it's cost me a fortune. £80 every other week you know.'

Anyone who uses a debit card for a vulnerable adult, without having POA, places themself and the adult in a, potentially, even more vulnerable position. As the attorney, I find it impossible.

Even if he has PoA for financial affairs, this does not give him permission to override her wishes or to prevent her from doing what she is capable of. Make sure you have a record of her saying you did this with her consent.

I thought your brother was relinquishing his POA?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/5013503-is-there-someone-with-legal-experience-on-here-please

It sounds like she still has capacity and he has no business using the PoA at this time. She would do well to make you both PoA for both finance and health and welfare.

I'm not a fan of going back through old threads, but I could tell there was more to this one...

He highlighted charges from Amazon of about £70 which was my fault but hadn't realised had occured, I accepted the error immediately and told him it would be repaid on March 4th plus a bit more as a sort of compensation, so £100 would be paid. I set up the payment from my bank account and sent a copy of it to him. He (with the help of his wife who is ex police officer and ex PA to a Barrister) have written staying they want screenshots of the transactions in question and they should be received by a certain date. I don't see why I should as the error was agreed to freely and will be repaid.

It seems it all started because he found a transaction on his mums bank statements that she hadn't agreed to and bought it up with OP.

I'm not sure why you would offer compensation for an innocent mistake, but did you pay it back OP? Is that why the situation is now escalated and he's going back a further 5 years to when you started using your mums card for purchases?

If it is the same poster it changes the situation, still mum needs to speak up if she can and op needs to stop buying anything.

Surely if it was Amazon/ online you should be able to access records for this and they will be addressed to your mother?

Giving a POA does not necessarily mean that one is incompetent.

I would let the brother know that I will be expecting detailed and audited accounts of your mother's affairs when she passes away. Who is named as executor on her will? If it's just the brother then I would be very suspicious of his motives, eg 'I will take back all you've spent on her behalf before sorting out the estate'. He has his eyes on the future as he makes all these accusations.

So if it was an error & has been paid back, he is checking back in case it has happened before?

So hopefully Op's mum's card is no longer linked to Op's Amazon account!

Can you ask him to send you the past 4 months bank statements and to highlight where the suspicious activity is happening and that as you’re buying things online, you’ll be able to match it up easily.

Its very possible that he’s trying to take your access away, so you can’t see what he’s spending for himself.

You’ll know whether he is doing anything dodgy or not because if he’s not, he won’t hesitate to send the bank statements.

If he won’t send the statements or won’t send them in full then you know he is up to something.

Are you named on the POA?

This is a potential safeguarding issue. Your mother has unknowingly signed a POA, your brother may be manipulating things to his advantage. A neutral person need to speak to your mother about how and who should manage her finances. You should contact Social Services

Exactly what me and my brother did for our Gran. He actually had POA but I had her bank card as I lived closer and did her shopping as and when. But nothing formal and no records.

It should be very straightforward - DB gets bank statements, checks any transactions that arent obvious, and you figure out what they were. Supermarket shop delivered to her is easy. Amazon stuff is also easy - things delivered to you will be bday & Christmas and similar values to that delivered to DB for same occasions.

As your DM has capacity, get her to make an appt with the solicitor who set up the PoA, ideally with both you and brother present, and get this mess sorted out.

Even with online shopping you will have receipts. If your brother persists with his accusations you can send him an itemised list. If that's not enough to satisfy him go to a solicitor and get them to inform your brother that he needs to stop, you have the information and you made the purchases at your Mums request. If necessary you can supply copies of receipts. Maybe he doesn't want you involved because he has ulterior motives himself. Whatever, he has power of attorney for your mother, not over you...oh and your SIL needs to back off too.

As a previous poster said POA doesnt come in until the person doesnt have capacity to make their own decisions. If your brother has access to mums bank statements I would ask if you can get similar access to see whats going on. The intention could be to make you back off and not see what they are spending money on. Call me cynical but thats something my brother would do. He had access to mums account at the end, banned me from the house without mums knowledge and spent her money online every night. I think i would also ask her if she has capacity, to write a signed note to say that up until a certain date she asked you to buy goods on her behalf and that there are no issues or wrongdoing with any of those purchases. Perhaps print off the bank statements going as far back as you can and go over with your mum each and every one of them, writing down the date, what was bought and who for. Tell mum what he has been doing, and what he has been accusing you of, I didnt as i felt it would make her life worse as she was dying, so he got away with really horrible things. Be honest, tell her and ask why your SIL has POA and you dont? Does she understand how serious these threats are? Certainly keep his abusive messages and always respond in a dignified manner. What age is mum, how was your relationship with your brother before all this?

Forgot to add POA only comes into effect when the person loses capacity

Yes and your mum can get her own access to these statements as well. No excuse for her to allow you to be treated like this.

The food shopping would have gone to her address presumably anyway?

Can you ask him what transactions he is unsure of and then you can work out what each one was and what/who it was for? Cross referencing your Amazon account as you can look back at the history?

tkwal · Today 20:10
Forgot to add POA only comes into effect when the person loses capacity

NO IT DOESN'T. Many posters have already said this is not true.Aagghhhh!!I

If the POA only just came in then they can't go after anything before that. For anything after, gather all the online receipts. Print them off go see your mum and get her to sign them.
Do you have in writing your mother giving you permission? If not, get her to put it in writing or as a video message.
Your brother doesn't sound like a good person.
You may need to do a welfare check on her. Are you still buying her shopping? If not who is? And how are they paying for it?
Sorry you're going through this.