Wrongfully being accused by brother and wife

[ForJoyousDog]

I don't know what to do! My brother has POA for finances for my mother, which he has actioned and now deals with her banking. He and his wife are doing an audit of mum's spending since dad died in 2019. Mum became a recluse after his death, the mobility car had to be returned. I live 750 miles from mum, my brother 12 miles but to help mum I did her grocery shopping online using her debit card. This turned into birthday cards, gifts, hobby materials etc but everything with her authority to use her account and card. My brother and his wife have said that now my brother "has unrestricted access to mum's account and are working closely with the bank as there are suspicious payments that have come out of her account". I have done nothing wrong, certainly not used my mothers bank account as my own but the accusation has been going on since January, the messages I get are hateful, they are relishing trying to destroy me, my husband won't support me because he told me this would happen and he is angry as to how this makes him look. My mother has told my brother that I had authority to do any shopping etc using her card, but it is still going on. I'm not eating, sleeping and my relationship is suffering. What can I do to make this stop does anyone have any ideas please?

Well if this has been going on since January then there no case to be carried out. Sounds like they want control of her money and your mum doesn't know how to speak out. If she has a disability of some sort you can ring up adult social services and ask for a advocate support who can then speak to your mum and make sure she not being taking advantage of. Say your concerns and what messages you have got and hopefully this will help. In the meantime block them from any contact. Sounds to me they qnay control of the money and is trying to get you out the picture.

Your brother and sil sound abusive. Seriously consider talking to your mum about revoking the possibility or replacing it with one that list you and brother as joint attorney, that need to sign together. Then no issue if poa is used as you'd both have to agree each decision. The fact she's no knowledge she signed poa makes me think she thought she was signing a will and bro and sil engineered this with the intention of getting to her money.

Tbh more detail is needed here.
I would like to know if these gifts bought for grandchildren and great grandchildren was something that the elderly mum had asked for or was it something that the daughter had asked for her mum to do.
Also were the gifts for the daughters grandchildren and great grandchildren.
Tbh the poster sounds suspicious more than anything. In the same position, I would have either not bought presents on behalf of elderly mother or if she had asked the daughter I would have bought something really small and with my own money.
Same for everything else. I would use money and not anything from her account.
I feel that alot of context is missing.

Post needs to clarify. Example...
On behalf of mum, I spent a total of 60 GBP on gifts for three grandchildren and I spent a total of 30 GBP on crafts etc.
Also why were they NOT posted to her mother's address.
Seems highly suspicious

im also curious about what the Op gifted herself and her husband

Agree

and remember apparently the husband always said it was a bad idea

Didn’t stop the op buying something for her husband from her mother 🤨

I just don't understand other people's families on mumsnet! Who wouldn't help their mum out and buy gifts on their behalf if asked? What mum can't say to their child 'can you get me something for your daughter as I can't get out/ use the Internet/ etc etc?' Where's the trust and love?! We could all steal from our parents if we wanted to, take things, go down purses, lie & cheat, do we all need checking up on?! It's bizarre it really is!!

And before anyone accuses me of anything I already have a POA for my mum but it's not to keep a check on me (which it doesn't do really!) it's to help her with banking and solicitors etc. Having that wouldn't stop me robbing her blind if I wanted to, it's my moral compass that stops me doing that, she's my mum for goodness sake!!

The difference is that there is alot of info missing here.
And in terms of shopping, crafts for my mum etc then I would pay for it all myself.
Also the part we she spent 70 GBP on herself that was accidental, I don't know.
Again, more context is needed.
Just alot of missing context and so we can't paint an accurate picture.
It would be helpful to know how much was spent on grandkids and great grandkids gifts and if they were here children.
Also what did she buy her husband.
Imagine buying a pool table for your husband as a gift on behalf of your mum.
Or buying a 400 GBP designer bag for yourself as a gift on behalf of your mum.
Alot of missing context required.
Also remember, not everyone is you.
I have seen so many situations were the parents get bankrupt due to blind trust the children are given. To the case where the poor father in his 70's has to return to work and bayliffs knocking on door.
I really hope in this situation, the poster did buy small items that was ok and nothing extravagant.

So not similar at all then...

Hi
Similar situation involving my brother and sister over care, money, you name it, of my Mum. We all had POA but as I was first to go to bank to register I got the card. Well the next 2 or 3 years were pure hell with my siblings accusing me of stealing, not caring properly for my Mum and so on. My brother produced spread sheets the lot and kept trying to wave them in my face. Looking back I should have kept better records but as it was family I wrongly assumed that there was trust between us and no way on earth would I have ever swindled my Mum or my siblings. I realised that I was damned if I tried to explain and damned if I said nothing so I refused to have any more to do with them after Mum passed. My sister was given £5000 by my Mum so she could have a final family holiday as her husband was terminally ill. Well my brother wanted her to repay it. He conveniently forgot the £25,000 he had "borrowed" a few years before. Bottom line is I dont have anything to do with them. I believe that one judges others my their own standards. Money and care for parents is so toxic.

I suspect your Sil thinks rightly or not that you will inherit from mother or allow mums money to fund her future care, basically that they won't inherit much. Sadly the type of behaviour DB and wife are exhibiting is typical of siblings protecting/maximising their inheritance.

So good news, they don't really care or think that you paid for mums shopping wrongly, they just want to discredit/ p--s you off so that they can do whatever they want to maximise their inheritance. Unlikely to be any action taken...not that you did anything wrong.

Oth Bad news, DB and SIl will try to hold this over you as long as they can and discredit you with mom and other family. Be prepared for nastiness.

Try to keep lines open with your mom, but reality wise if she has dementia living 700+ miles away is going to be a problem if you want to be involved in her care needs.

I'm sorry, its not going to be a happy family time.

Hi Your Brother snd his wife want to control your Mum’s money.
she has already told him that you can have access.

Get written permission of your Mum to back you up.
if your brother is like this now, then whats he going to be like if she died?

Talk to Citizen Advice.
Your brother is unreasonable…

I quite agree

My 79 year old mom doesn’t know how to do online shopping. So I have her card details and will use it to purchase things for her that she has asked me to, because she doesn’t know how to.

She’ll also give the card to my brother and Dad to draw money out for her.

It’s quite normal. It’s called trust. It’s supporting your family.

Now mom has recently done a new will and made both my brother and I executors and POA’s for finances and health. But that’s only since the end of last year and we’d only action it if mom lost capacity or if she specifically asked us to. Otherwise it’s business as usual and we’ll continue to help my mom with accessing her money and online purchases when she asks us to.

If your mum didn’t know she had signed LPA paperwork then I think the easiest solution to this is for you to write to the office of the public guardian with your mums’ details and report your brother, because if it’s true, not only has it been obtained fraudulently, but she won’t have had any input into the terms of the LPA or what she wanted in terms of advance directives etc - the LPA will likely have been drafted to your brother and SiL’s advantage. It’s worrying that he’s ignored the fact that she actually doesn’t have dementia, if this has been determined medically.

The OPG will investigate and if it finds anything amiss, the LPA will be dissolved. If your mum still has capacity she can then make another LPA and decide for herself what she wants to include in it, and who she wants as attorneys. Ideally it should be both of you co-signing to agree everything because it doesn’t sound as though your brother is trustworthy. Also, think about this. If your mother still has capacity, why does your brother think he has the authority to ‘action’ the LPA ? In normal circumstances an LPA can be registered to put into action immediately - in which case this would have been done as soon as it was registered, so there would be no need for him to do that now. The other option is to register it to be used only when the donor has lost capacity. It sounds like the latter from what you’ve said, and if your mum still has capacity then something is very wrong and the OPG need to be involved for your mums’ protection.

So? My mom asks me to buy gifts for her for my husband, too? I don’t see why her wishes should be ignored.

A lasting power of attorney dies with the person, so he’ll have to abide by whatever the terms of her will are. If I were OP, I would be contacting the Office of the Public Guardian and asking them to investigate the circumstances surrounding the LPA. OP has said her mother wasn’t aware that she had signed one.

To be legal the LPA should have involved her full participation and should be a reflection of her own wishes, so she should know what it contains and when it can be actioned. It’s also concerning that OP says her mother hasn’t got a diagnosis of dementia, and has full capacity. If that’s the case why did her brother feel it necessary to put the LPA into action in January ? LPA’s can be registered to use immediately even if the donor has capacity, in which case the attorneys have an advisory capacity only and must abide by whatever the donor wants. If the LPA has been registered for use when the donor has lost capacity, what evidence did brother give for that when he actioned it ? Something sounds very off about the whole thing, and rather than get enmeshed in it, OP should contact the OPG and advise them of her concerns.

I am surprised by the number of responses criticising the OP
She did nothing wrong, her mother asked her to do these things and she did it all with her mother’s permission. So what?
Her husband needs to be more supportive and less “I told you so” which isn’t helpful.
Oh and she should tell her brother and SIL to feck off .

I did say her DH was right that she should be wary. However, it now looks as if the brother has defrauded their mother by having and actioning a LPA without their mother knowing/understanding what has been done. In which case the correct procedure is to write to the Public Guardian and have the LPA investigated, and possibly revoked. My brother had a LPA for our DM with which I fully agreed, because he was within forty miles of DM and I was either 100 miles away or 250, depending on where I was living at the time. There was no fraud, I occasionally bought stuff for DM and my DB always asked for my agreement to purchases he made on DM's account e.g. new furniture, a funeral plan, a new bed etc. My DM retained the ability to order clothes by post, which was fine with us both. My DM died a few months ago; that the funeral was already paid for and sorted was an absolute blessing since my DB was in no condition to organise it (other family disaster rolling out) and my DH had just died very suddenly and I and my DCs and DSCs had had to organise that - I could not have done another. DD did the few arrangements that were needed i.e. time of funeral, flowers and place for a wake and catering. In the situation the OP finds herself I would deeply suspect her DB's motives - and SiL's.

I think you need to read the thread and her other thread, it’s clear she did spend on her mothers card for items that there was no permission for.

Where does it say OP bought things without permission?
This is a snip from the original post.
“……. everything with her authority to use her account and card.”
She says everything was done with her mother’s authority.
Everything.

And if her mother has capacity it’s up to her to explain that. If I were the OP I would be contacting the OPG to ask them to investigate because there is clearly something very wrong here if the brother has actioned an LPA while the mother still has capacity. OP also says her mother had no idea she’d signed an LPA, which is fraud.

Read the thread, OP also says her mother is fully aware of what her brother is doing & is “allowing it” therefore he has her permission.

As I said upthread, I think OP’s mother is telling her one story & her brother quite another.

As I said upthread, I think OP’s mother is telling her one story & her brother quite another.

Which is why the safest thing to do is for OP to report her concerns to OPG and let them investigate. If her mother has no recollection of even signing an LPA then potentially it’s fraudulent and hasn’t been drawn up with either her mothers’ consent or is in her best interests.

I work in adult social care have more of a clue than you I expect. So don’t be so rude.

If the Mum had no capacity and financial abuse had taken place than this I different but in this case the mum has capacity and no POA at the time the decisions were made so there’s nothing the brother can do.

Your Brother & his Wife should be able to see from your Mums bank accounts what has been bought, or at least where things were bought from. Ask him for copies of the statements & annotate anything you have bought on behalf of your Mum, ie shopping, presents etc & give him details of what was bought & who it was for. If you have evidence of orders you have made online send him these so he can tally them with the statements so he knows you;re telling the truth. With your Brother having POA he should be able to contact the bank asking for further details of the suspicious transactions & try & work out what they relate to. Is your Mum able to defend you at all & explain that she has asked you to make some purchases for her?