Should I just let them carry on stealing?

[Toytownupthehill]

My elderly DM has had tens of thousands of pounds stolen from her by my two siblings for entirely different reasons. When I try to intervene I am told it is none of my business, which is true, it still pains me to see someone stripped of everything that she and my DF worked for. I have power of attorney but I can't stop her being robbed. Should I just give up?

@Marni83

But if the mother lives with one of the thieving siblings And she reports that sibling

I think safe to assume - she would have to move out!

Moving out and having to move into residential care are not the same. Perhaps the mother owns the house and would not have to move out at all.

Not difficult

[quote moynomore]@DamnUserName21 that is good advice. Maybe it's time to consider if she has capacity. But I can see how the OP would be worried that a determination like that could start the mother along a new path (care homes etc.). [/quote]
Not necessarily.
A person can have limited capacity and manage well at home.
The thing is with POA, they are supposed to be for when persons can't manage (in the future) and lose their mental capacity so OP can't go to the bank and freeze DMs assets without her DM having been assessed--that would be abuse of a POA.
This is why POAs are signed when a person has capacity.

well.. te debit card issue is fixable, report the card stolen and request a new pin.. and don't hand it over again.

Maybe DM lives with one of the thieving siblings?
You haven't given us a lot to go on OP in order for anyone to offer any proper advice. Do you live close to your DM? Could you take over all her debit cards and deal with all her financial affairs? Is there any reason why she made you the POA and not your siblings?
There's so much we don't know. It must be heart breaking to see your DM taken advantage of and maybe she's in denial. It's difficult to accept that the people we love could abuse us in this way. Is there any older relative that knows all the in's and out's of her life you could confide in? Failing that, Citizens Advice?

I agree it seems to me that one of the siblings provides care.

Also agree that unless the dm is judged to lack capacity the OP’s POA is inactive.

Frankly, if the dm is telling OP it is none of her business, then, unless the dm really is non compos mentis, there is nothing to be done. The OP may think it’s unfair or the dm is being taken advantage of, but at this point the dm has spoken, and she has condoned giving the money.

It doesn’t matter whether the siblings are scummy thieves shooting up or upstanding citizens being given money for a house deposit, if the dm has chosen to give them her money the only thing the OP can do is continue to try to reason with the dm.

Sorry but it doesn't matter who it is, they are stealing from the account and you are essentially enabling them to do so. As you have POA, you will be able to go to the bank and raise a dispute to look and have the sibling with the card access revoked. I'd also look to change all log in details such as online. If the other siblings have POA access too which is they have authorised access then raise it to the office of public guardian to investigate via the whilstbowling if need be.

You are enabling though. And whilst you say there is nothing you can do, there is plenty you can do. You could be found liable to anything taken given you knew and haven't done anything to stop since you first knew and now pondering on a thread for sympathy.

Makes no sense

@BingeOnChocolate

Sorry but it doesn't matter who it is, they are stealing from the account and you are essentially enabling them to do so. As you have POA, you will be able to go to the bank and raise a dispute to look and have the sibling with the card access revoked. I'd also look to change all log in details such as online. If the other siblings have POA access too which is they have authorised access then raise it to the office of public guardian to investigate via the whilstbowling if need be.

You are enabling though. And whilst you say there is nothing you can do, there is plenty you can do. You could be found liable to anything taken given you knew and haven't done anything to stop since you first knew and now pondering on a thread for sympathy.

Agree. Why wouldnt You have stopped this sooner??

POA only gives the OP the right to undertake financial matters for her DM with her consent whilst she has capacity.

If the DM has capacity and understands that she is being stolen from but does not want any help with bringing these thefts to an end then there is nothing the OP can do.

If her DM lost capacity then in that circumstance OP has to register the POA with the relevant authority and then she can take steps to protect her DM.

It all comes down to the capacity of the DM if she has it then there is nothing the OP can do. If she reports to the police without her DM's support then likely her DM will no longer trust OP leaving DM at the hands of the theives. Also, if the DM is acquiescing to one sibling using her debit card and pin that is a breach of the Bank regulations but again the DM would be said to have authorised the taking of the money by giving the card and pin to the sibling. If the DM refuses to report the theft by the other sibling then that is her perogative provided that she has capacity.

This really is a ubiquitous situation for the OP to find herself in. I would suggest that she talks to her DM and tries and find a way to get the care needed at home without her siblings involvement and see if she will agree to the OP taking over dealing with the Bank which would enable her to cancel the existing card and request a new one with an different pin number. All of this can only be done with her DM's permission.

You have poa for this reason, to protect her. Go to her bank, with your loan papers. It takes a few days to register. Then book to talk to someone, ask them to help you protect your mother.

There is plenty you can do to stop this.
You just dont sound very capable. Is there another family member who would be better suited to looking after your mum's interested? Because you are failing her.

You have 3 choices OP

1. do nothing
2. do everything for you mother from here. Change the locks, change the bank card etc and basically guard her
3. Tell the Police and give both the thieves and your mother the chance to sort this out or she enters residential care

Only you know the right choice for you. I would do 3. I know it would be a nightmare but I couldn't do nothing and nor could I do everything. My father is preyed on by his step children and I cannot do anything to prevent it as he gives them money when they manipulate him. It is very difficult, a lot of people have no understanding of the complexity of the issue you are facing. It is not your fault or fully your responsibility no matter what anyone says, here or in RL. Take care

@Beautiful3

You have poa for this reason, to protect her. Go to her bank, with your loan papers. It takes a few days to register. Then book to talk to someone, ask them to help you protect your mother.

You cannot use a POA if a person has mental capacity, which is assumed unless a capacity assessment says otherwise. POAs are for when a person LOSES capacity.

OP, Adult safeguarding team at your local council will investigate for financial abuse and can get your DM assessed. I cannot reiterate this enough... a contact number will be on the local council's website. If you call the police, they will like refer to adult safeguarding team anyway.

Age Concern might be able to offer you some advice on how to manage the situation. Its frighteningly common sadly.

www.ageuk.org.uk/information-advice/health-wellbeing/relationships-family/protection-from-abuse/

That seems like a spectacularly naive comment, I am not a career criminal but unfortunately it's not a totally new idea to me that elderly people are taken advantage of. Also, having POA doesn't literally give you any responsibility.

It absolutely does give you responsibilities that you need to act on. Where did you get the idea that it didn't?

Surely get the PIN's changed?

I don't think that you've been very clear. Does your mum want you to sort it out via the POA? Go to the bank? Even if she doesn't you can still report it, although not sure what could be done without her cooperation.

@DottyHarmer

I agree it seems to me that one of the siblings provides care.

Also agree that unless the dm is judged to lack capacity the OP’s POA is inactive.

Frankly, if the dm is telling OP it is none of her business, then, unless the dm really is non compos mentis, there is nothing to be done. The OP may think it’s unfair or the dm is being taken advantage of, but at this point the dm has spoken, and she has condoned giving the money.

It doesn’t matter whether the siblings are scummy thieves shooting up or upstanding citizens being given money for a house deposit, if the dm has chosen to give them her money the only thing the OP can do is continue to try to reason with the dm.

This.

We are in a similar situation and have been appalled by how easy it is for it to happen. Basically, if your (elderly, in our case) relative is deemed to be capable of making decisions then nothing can be done. DMIL would have to say that she wants an investigation to take place but won't because she does not want to upset the person in question as she relies on her for everything - paying bills, doing the online food shop etc etc and worries that if she speaks out then she'll alienate the person in question and she doesn't want to do that. She has specifically told DH that she does not want this to go any further.

A huge sum of money is missing from her account and DH (who has POA) and I can do nothing. It's a living nightmare.

Financial abuse is a crime, report your siblings to the police xx

You cannot use a POA if a person has mental capacity, which is assumed unless a capacity assessment says otherwise.
POAs are for when a person LOSES capacity.

POA can be used if the person has capacity, but it requires their permission. My parents have an issue that they want us to sort out as soon as the POA is official. We will be able to act then.

I have POA
I have full control of the money .
I have the bank cards and the bank account
The buck stops with me ,in case of any fraudulent activity,as I am 100% responsible for the money having POA
You need to sort this out op ,you are allowing it to happen

having POA doesn't literally give you any responsibility

I'm afraid this is wrong. It does give you responsibility. If she is no longer able to manage her finances herself, you are responsible for managing her finances and property in her best interests. That means payments should only be made for her care, upkeep of her property and her bills. Small gifts can continue if your mother can afford them. That is all you should be allowing.

I'm not clear why one of your siblings has your mother's debit card. Is there any reason why you can't get the bank to disable it? I note that katemuff lists three things you can do. I would be doing 2 & 3, i.e. changing the locks, changing the bank card and doing anything else necessary to stop your siblings stealing from your mother, and informing the police.

If your mother is still capable of managing her own finances, your PoA is irrelevant and the responsibilities associated with having PoA haven't kicked in yet. In that situation, I would still inform the police. What your siblings are doing is financial abuse. If it were me, I would feel complicit in that abuse if I did nothing to stop it.

My relative is constantly trying to give ,me / others her money.
Not going to happen ,as I am financially responsible.
At some point a solicitor will look in to this ,or social services,when the person needs money for a care home ,and questions will be asked where the money has gone

Get advice from any of the suggested places given here; citizens advice bureau, Age Concern or social services.

Lots of people are frightened of social services and assume they will automatically take a person into care when contacted. Not the case.

How precarious is your mum's situation? What will happen if her savings are completely depleted? If over ten thousand has been "siphoned" off in a relatively short period then this level of spending isn't sustainable.

Would it have any effect if you confronted the siblings with bank statements detailing how quickly your mother's savings are being used? That might be a wake up call?.

It will be near on impossible to get this money back so the best course of action is for the pilfering to be stopped.

I agree with a pp advising you to seek support from other (responsible) family members. You sound completely out of your depth. Sorry you're in such an awful position.

I don't think the OP is coming back to answer any of the key questions!