Should I just let them carry on stealing?

[Toytownupthehill]

My elderly DM has had tens of thousands of pounds stolen from her by my two siblings for entirely different reasons. When I try to intervene I am told it is none of my business, which is true, it still pains me to see someone stripped of everything that she and my DF worked for. I have power of attorney but I can't stop her being robbed. Should I just give up?

OP, can I gently remind you that you have chosen to come on this forum for advice. People are trying to give you that advice based on the (vague and partial) information you have provided. I appreciate that you're in a difficult situation, but try to take a deep breath and actually look at the information you have been given.

The whole issue hinges on whether your mother has capacity to make decisions or not. You need to clarify that first of all.

But either way, I can't imagine anyone here will advise you to "just give up".

@ManifestDestinee

Also, having POA doesn't literally give you any responsibility

POA literally gives you ALL the responsibility! You say you are not complicit in this, but if it comes out that they were stealing, and you not only knew about it but did not take any steps to stop it, you will legally be an accomplice, and can be charged as such.

So not true. If the mother has capacity and doesn't want to do anything about the stealing there is nothing the OP can do. It's not even really stealing if the mother knows about it and is ok with it. It's very, very unfortunate, but the OP will absolutely not be responsible just because she holds a POA.

If your mother has capacity and is consenting you cannot stop this. Capacity includes the capacity to make bad decisions. If she doesn't have capacity then you can stop it and you should. I would make a report to adult social services at your Local Authority if you feel she is being coerced.

We've been there OP. Similar situation with BIL using deceased FILs card to withdraw money, pay for (his) bills etc, etc. MIL had given him permission to withdraw money on her behalf, but nothing else. She never looked at her bank statements as she was 'old school' and all the finances/bills were the responsibility of the man of the house (in this case BIL). He gradually took advantage of the situation.

He had upwards of £20k over the past 8 years or so - even though it was with (dead) FILs card, so fraud. Came to a halt when MIL went into residential care and DH applied for Deputyship (no POA in place). Once we took over the accounts it became obvious what was happening - no-one had removed FIL from the joint account. BIL was supposedly executor of the will but none of the normal things were done - not even advising the solicitor of FILs death for probate reasons.

Not sure if you've said, but if one of your siblings has access to your mum's account, has a third party mandate been set up? If so, can you reverse this? Does your mum have capacity to make this decision?

In our case I wanted to go to the police as, yes, it was abuse, theft, and fraud. For many different reasons this didn't happen and I wish I had said something. Got more of a backbone now and wouldn't hesitate.

You need to do what you think is right OP - no matter how difficult it is. I hope you manage to sort things out. It's shit when people take advantage like this, and even more shit when you feel powerless to stop it. Good luck.

@Toytownupthehill
You're half right, we don't have any idea what your going through but you are the one choosing what tone to read messages in here.
My feeling is you're feeling attacked because you're already upper height and feel at a loss of what to do.
Asking what the point of this thread is is a fairly reasonable question.

The people who have responded with advice and info digging questions you have ignored or attacked. Take a breath and accept that the majority of us are here to help you but you have to allow that.

If you want us all to commiserate with you and lambast your siblings for their criminal ways then this really is the wrong forum.

I myself, had both types of POA for my late father, and am signed up for the same with my mother when she needs it.
It's fucking hard work. Not physically, not literally, but emotionally... it's all back to front and you have to make judgement calls that your mother may not like. I did.
I had to put my father in a home.
Which was his worst nightmare and he had spent years telling me he would rather die then go into a home. But I was out in a position where I had no choice. I was given the responsibility to speak on his behalf and make those tough calls.

So, does your mother have capacity? Because the answer to that question changes everything.
Does she have capacity?

She has to give it up because she clearly disagrees with her mother's decisions and is in conflict with the rest of the family. Why agree to act in those circumstances?

How can you be in a position of agreeing to manage someone's finances once they lack capacity when you so fundamentally disagree with the way they act and with others involved in their care? It's only going to lead to conflict which OP doesn't seem keen on so why not just walk away?

How is it going to be decided if this is an unwise capacitous decision (not OPs business) or exploitation of a vulnerable adult lacking capacity which she is obliged to act to protect her as LPA holder?
Her mother would ideally need to be examined by a Dr re: mental capacity if there was any reason to doubt her capacity. If OP isn't going to report this then that will never happen and we won't know which one it is.

I think I would report and get a SOVA investigation to clarify but maybe if it would alienate me from my family or make my mums life worse then I wouldn't but I can't see what's the point on keeping LPA if you have no intention to involve yourself

Would it be so bad if she went into residential care of some kind?

I am not quite sure how any of this has become my fault, I am fully aware that my relatives are criminal scum but I am not involved with their activities.

Maybe because you could cancel the card and change the pin and you haven’t done that?

If I reported them to the police then my DM would have to enter residential care, she doesn't want to do that and it would remove any semblance of independence that she has left.

How would calling the police have her end up in care? At most (and it’s unlikely) it would result in her having an assessment to see whether she needed to go in to care, and that isn’t something they agree to on a whim. Nobody can force your mother in to care.

If you're saying your mother would be made to go into residential care against her will due to the actions of these people, then that suggests she lacks capacity at least to decide her own care needs. If she can't decide her own card needs, then she may not be able to decide financial matters as these are of a similar level of complexity (although would need assessing separately).

Are you saying this?

Did you actually want any advice or help then?
You have been told what to do and you know what’s happening so it you continue to allow this then you are complicit
Your family sound awful but you know what they are like and what they are doing so try and stop them. If you don’t at least try then you need to just accept that they will bleed her dry while you say how awful it is and do nothing.
You say that if this is challenged she will go into care so I am guessing one of the thieves takes care of her in some way. You need to decide whether this care is worth turning a blind eye to what is happening or whether to change things and deal with the consequences. Neither sound ideal but that’s the choice

@diddl

Would it be so bad if she went into residential care of some kind?

I would be willing to bet the issue is financial. There is more to this than OP is telling. In fact it's like trying to extract teeth. One person apparently has permission to take money and the other? Who knows. My suspicion is now that OP is not happy that mum is giving money to siblings, just as OP would not be happy if mum had to pay for her care.

I may be completely wrong and am happy for OP to come along and tell me so, but without any of the important details that so many are asking OP to clarify we have to drawn our own assumptions.

I also don't get the link with having to go into care

Because they provide care to her and would stop? It can be replaced with a care package

Because they would be a risk to her and she wouldn't be safe? Then the police would need to handle that and possible get a restraining order.

There isn't an obvious link between children being stopped from financially abusing a person and them going into care.

And having a POA gives you no rights or responsibilities unless you invoke it and take over.

You're in a difficult position, OP. Why do you think she'd need to enter residential care if it was reported? I'm not saying it's your fault, not for a second, but as POA, you do have an obligation and a duty of care to intervene and/or report if you know of, or even suspect, financial abuse.

Why would your mother end up in residential care? Is the person using her bank card providing care for her?

@Toytownupthehill

I am not quite sure how any of this has become my fault, I am fully aware that my relatives are criminal scum but I am not involved with their activities. If I reported them to the police then my DM would have to enter residential care, she doesn't want to do that and it would remove any semblance of independence that she has left.

Your poor mother She tells you And you do nothing And she even trusts you to give you POA

You are totally failing her

OP, as I understand it, if you have financial PoA, then you should also have control over any bank account in your DM’s sole name.
If this is the case, couldn’t you report the card stolen and ask for the new one to be sent to yourself and then tell the sibling responsible for getting purchases that they need to pay for the goods, produce a receipt and then they get the money? If that’s not possible, could you set up a supermarket delivery order for your DM so she doesn’t have to rely on the one with the drug problem? You could also remove all cheque books from her possession Etc.
Btw, this happened with my own DM and one of my siblings until I carried out the actions described... because the sibling had gone under the radar, it was too embarrassing for them to challenge the changes...

Are you afraid of what might happen if you challenged your siblings over this and tried to put a stop to it? From how they might react to how your mother might react? Sounds like you feel very powerless and I wonder whether this is out of fear of the consequences of standing up to your siblings? Do you have anyone supporting you who can help you?

People are having a go at you but it’s not easy to stand up and fight family when it’s you against more of them and your mother in the centre.

Change the pin? Surely with POA you can do this? Cancel the debit card?
Do t know what you can do about the other as you haven’t stated how they are getting the money. Don’t allow this to continue. You have POA for a reason. Your mum doesn’t have the mental capacity to deal with her finances effectively,surely, or you wouldn’t have POA? So therefore it’s up to you to make sure her finances are protected, even if she doesn’t agree with you? Sorry you’re going through this. Very difficult.

Quite obviously the mother would have to go in to residential care because she lives with one of the thieving siblings

@Marni83

Quite obviously the mother would have to go in to residential care because she lives with one of the thieving siblings

Not obvious and not even a given if she did live with them.

@Toytownupthehill

None of the money has been given, it has all been stolen.

If its stolen, report it and go from there. End of.

What other reason could there be for the mother having to go in residential care if the op reports?!

Well, no of course you shouldn’t let them.

Does your mum know the sibling is taking more than she allows them to? If she wants to give them money, can you change the way it is given so they cannot take more?

And how does the other sibling steal? Cash around the house? If so, can you limit the amount of cash in the house for example?

I can see why you're upset/angry but if your DM is of sound mind and knows they are taking this money and has told you to keep out then they're not stealing. If she isn't and you report to police this won't mean she ends up in care at all. You can give up POA which given the brief details you've provided is what I would do.