Am I entitled to know where the DC are on holiday?

[ilovemilton]

Shared care order. Two weeks court ordered holiday in August and one in October.

He is taking the children, 10 and 7, away on holiday during these weeks. He says the details of such are non of my business and he refuses to tell me any dates or locations. This is making the already hostile 10yo refuse to go to contact even more. DC have never been away from home this long without me and this is just adding to their distress.

Am I meant to know where they are? If so, how is this enforceable?

So the children are due to see him tomorrow and you still haven't got advice from a solicitor or other professional?

I thought I had said earlier, I had legal advice and they said I had to follow the court order or apply to have it varied. There was also the option of a non mol but I can't afford the fees and can't bear to self rep.

I have spoken to the NSPCC for advice and described the whole case plus current situation and they say they are extremely concerned that the children are at risk. They have asked social services to deal with it urgently today, to advise and assess before contact tomorrow.

The police are attempting again to arrest him on their late shift. What's this crap about not being able to arrest someone at work? So frustrating. I thought the police would have dealt with it by now.

Even if a care order is issued, they won't be removed from you - and you continue to have parental responsibility, but decisions to do with the DCs must be agreed by the LA. That will help you, as there is now independent evidence that your ex abuses them

Ummmm, this is quite an inaccurate statement. The LA does not HAVE to remove the DC from the family, but it gives them the specific authority to do so. And in most cases this is what happens.

I think this case is too complex for commentators to sensibly give any assistance to the OP. She has sought legal advice and has been told to let contact go ahead (although it is open to her to apply to vary the existing order). There is a history of allegations that the court is aware of, although it is of course not aware of the most recent one. OP has to take the advice of her legal adviser and act on the recommendations of social services (if they get involved once again).

They have asked social services to deal with it urgently today, to advise and assess before contact tomorrow.

Well done OP - I cannot believe that ALL the professionals involved will disregard the risk to the DC's that is very apparent to you. While you may have been "unlucky" in your allocation of CAFCASS Officer, an urgent review by Soc Serv will be carried out by a duty Social Worker who will, at best, be familiar with the case only on paper. Faced with two terrified DC's, I hope that they are likely to err on the side of caution in the short term, allowing due process to take place in court.

The LA does not HAVE to remove the DC from the family, but it gives them the specific authority to do so. And in most cases this is what happens.
I was commenting based on my on experience; while I know of many DC's with care orders, the majority are still living with their parents - not least because there are just not the care placements available to provide care for the DC's elsewhere. Of course, it is a possibility that they may be removed if they are at risk of significant, immediate harm - as the OP's solicitor has no doubt explained - but it is by no means inevitable.
Having an objective third party with parental responsibility is an extreme, but often effective, method of diffusing hostilities.

OP I understand that it is frustrating that the Police have been unable to act on the statements they have been given; however, if they believed that your ex was a significant risk, they would have arrested him by now, work or no work. Has he left you alone since he assaulted you and abused the DC's?

Yes he has. He has text my mother however, telling her the clothes have to be ready for him so he is clearly still in the same frame of mind.

If your mum objects to his contacting her, she can address that herself - the important thing is that he is leaving you alone and not harassing you further.

Hopefully, once the issue of whether or not he takes the DC's on holiday or not is sorted out, you can go back to the court order, assuming it is considered safe for the DC's.

If you do end up back in court, have you considered using a third party for handovers so that conflict can be avoided? Many Courts now order hand overs to take place via school or childcare to diffuse tension - recent reports suggest that it helps the DC's with transition between parents, too and I've certainly seen my DD benefit from it, along with myself.

Bloody hell OP. I know absolutely nothing about the legal side of this or yours and your children's rights but hey - what is wrong with this man?!!!

I feel so sorry for you but even more for your children!

I so, so hope you get it sorted and he doesn't take the kids away with things as they are

Hand overs are usually at school but it's the holidays. However, the order also states that we communicate by text regularly about the children, school etc and make decisions together. Wide open to abuse...every single decision is hours and hours of arguing and abusive texts.

He's currently in custody.

I really hope social services to as they have been asked, it is horrible how some abusive people manage to get around the law and the courts

Hope something results from the police having him Milton

I hope it goes to court because they will get me an injunction then and he will have to stop the constant abuse. I don't think anyone is in a hurry to interfere with the contact order.

Well you don't seem to be! You need to look into getting legal aid or free/low cost legal representation. If you can't get that you'll need to cough up for a solicitor and go to court. Sorry but it's the only way.

Anotheremma calm down! She's said a number of times she's had legal advice. People like women's charity helplines aren't going to help with this. I know you're trying to help but you're disbelieving the OP when she's saying she's done these things. You can't pay solicitors with magic beans, these options aren't always as straight forward as posting them on a forum.

Anyway OP this whole thing sounds awful and I hope the next few days brings some calm.

He denied it all and discredited my witness so no charges and no further action.

I'm sorry to hear that. Can you arrange any future face to face contact between the two of you is somewhere where independent witnesses are present, so that if he assaults you again, there is no question about their credibility?

More importantly, has there been any follow up by Soc Serv following your NSPCC call?
If your DC's are still terrified, then at the very least, there should be some form of welfare check if contact does go ahead, surely?

You still have the option of contacting the Information Commissioner about his misuse of the information held about you by his employer. It will not be dependent on witnesses, as the computer records of data he has accessed will be held by his employer who will be required to disclose them on request. That is a longer term action, and of course, may well impact on his income and employability, so if you are financially dependent on him, it may be a route you would prefer not to take. But, from experience, I know that that type of action is investigated thoroughly and relentlessly, and penalties are very high.

At £18 csa a week, I am not financially dependant on him. I already have plans to speak to the ICO but my brain can't take it right now. In my most angry moments, I do quite wish for him to be sacked, as then he would lose his house and have to go and live with his mum, 150 miles away, and this nightmare would end.

Social services called CAFCASS and they said these allegations were historical and have been fully addressed. Mother has been told that she is not to discuss DV again.

Social services then called exh and confirmed that as the charges have been dropped, it was a false allegation all along, thus proving what CAFCASS said. They also asked him about the undressing issue plus other issues of neglect such as the house being uninhabitable, and he said this wasn't true. This was all done by phone.

So social services then called me and said there were no safeguarding issues and if I had an issue with contact, to return to court. But since the final order was made only a few months ago and CAFCASS are clear, it is unlikely anything will change. At a cost of £5k+, it's not something I can contemplate.

I did try to explain that this happened last week but she shot me down mid sentence saying that if it was true then he would have been charged. I discussed the neglect/undressing/holiday issues and she said do they have clothes, meals and a bed? That is all safeguarding are interested in, and re iterated to take it back to court if I had issues, that it is not a safeguarding issue.

I am so frustrated, I feel my children and I are at risk from his temper, nothing will ever change and he can just get away with whatever he likes. For years.

These are the stories that make headlines when something dreadful happens.

With regard to future contact, again, court order says return to mother, so he won't even discuss doing otherwise.

With regard to future contact, again, court order says return to mother, so he won't even discuss doing otherwise.

Fine - he can return them to you - but you tell him where you will be. Unless the court order says "return to the mother, at x address", you can be anywhere you like, and he has to return them to you there.
If you tell him (don't discuss it- just notify him that is where you will be, and ignore any objections he may make) that you will be in the Front Office of your local police station, or outside the local court (in view of the Court Security Office), at handover time, then that is where he has to return them to.
Ideally, it would be possible to avoid face to face contact, but when you have such a wishy-washy ineffective court order, the way to protect yourself and the DC's is to work within it.

Social services called CAFCASS and they said these allegations were historical and have been fully addressed.

I've just spotted this - Is this even legal?

CAFCASS are not a part of Social Services (all be it the officers are social workers). They are completely independent of Social Services.

In the event of a concern raised about the welfare of a child to Soc Serv via the NSPCC, I see no reason for there to be sharing of information between agencies. Soc Serv remit is clear - check the welfare of the DC's.

Social Services can contact whoever they want, in my experience.

Also, without meaning any disrespect to the OP, there appears to have been a lot of safeguarding history which has culminated in a family court judge deciding that the OP has made too many false allegations of DV and that this is harmful to the children. Therefore, if further allegations are made, checking this information with CAFCASS forms part of the welfare check. I don't see how it's any different from them checking information with a GP or a school.

The OP has been told repeatedly that she needs to get specialist DV legal advice and as far as I can see, she hasn't. It seemed entirely likely to me that this would end up as it has and I strongly suspect that if we had the full facts of the case, some things would stop appearing quite so "unbelievable".

She was horrible. She brought me to tears. There was absolutely no discussion. She said it was a court matter not safeguarding.

I told him a couple of weeks ago that I would like the children returning to me at my sisters house in the future, as he has consistently been an arse. He replied that he will take them home and if I am not there then he will keep them until I can be bothered to collect them. This forcing me to go to his house. He doesn't negotiate.

He replied that he will take them home and if I am not there then he will keep them until I can be bothered to collect them.

Don't let him bully you. Call his bluff. Just repeat that you will be at your sisters house. Put it in writing. And then go.

Its you who shouldn't be "negotiating". He has to return them to you by order of the court. He will be in breach if he doesn't.

Stop expecting him to "agree" with you - you have been engaged in a adversarial process with him for too long. Just state what will happen, make sure it is documented and then act on it.

What full facts would you like?

Myself and my children have been consistently abused for years. With no specific dates, times or witnesses, these incidents are deemed in law as not happening. And that's not because they aren't bad incidents, it's because days merge into years and you can't remember specific details of each battering.

He then went to court and acted like the victim, securing contact with his children who are also terrified. This contact time has allowed him to continue to abuse everyone. But because he has now convinced everyone that I am simply hostile, any bruises, marks, scratches, abuse and witnessed events are dismissed with a phonecall to exh.

If you see that as unbelievable, fine. But that is the problem with the legal system in this country. And that is why so many deaths and systematic failures reach the headlines.

I can't seek help because as someone working full time to provide for the children alone, as let's face it, what is £18 a week, I would have to pay legal costs. Just an injunction to protect myself would cost £1000k plus. All the while, part time working exh uses £40k of taxpayers money to pay for all this.

I'm not hiding anything or exaggerating. In fact, I play a lot of it down. I come on here to ask for help from those with more knowledge and support from those who have been there.

milton while I understand your frustration, people are only trying to help.

It's understandable that people are going to struggle to accept that multiple agencies all of which are charged with protecting children have systematically failed to address any of the issues you have posted about here.

However, no matter how you got here, there are things you can do.

Stop trying to negotiate with an abuser. Use the law and court order to your advantage.
Stop seeing him face to face at your home. Do not engage in text conversations with him - notify him of parenting issues (such as medication, etc, as required by the court order) tell him where you will be for drop off and then disengage. Do not enter into discussion. Operate within the letter of the order.

You say you receive hours of abusive texts from him. Don't accommodate it! Turn off your phone.

Sorry to hear that OP. I think that you need to think carefully about how you progress with this case and seek legal advice.

Given the history of the case, it's entirely normal for SS to speak to Cafcass. There seems little point pursuing an injunction, given the existing proceedings and the court's view of the historic allegations.

It is sadly true that the children are being traumatised by having to witness these showdowns at contact handovers. Whatever happens, they need to stop. The best way of doing that is to have absolutely minimal interaction with him at handovers (and generally). You cannot change his behaviour, but you can refuse to interact with him if he starts provoking you. Your children are old enough to walk from his car to the front door and knock to be let in. There should be no need for you and your ex to speak. If you have an impartial friend who can assist with handover, that would also be helpful (ie if there are any messages to be passed over).

Contacting his employers is unlikely to help. You don't know if it will get him sacked, but it will get him angry. The children will be the ones who suffer.

You're in a difficult situation and unfortunately nobody is going to rescue you from it. Therefore, you need to figure out how you can make it work without your children being further damaged by what is going on. He is their dad and whether you like it or not, will be in their lives at least until they are old enough to decide for themselves. The imperative now is to minimise the conflict by whatever means possible.