Am I entitled to know where the DC are on holiday?

[ilovemilton]

Shared care order. Two weeks court ordered holiday in August and one in October.

He is taking the children, 10 and 7, away on holiday during these weeks. He says the details of such are non of my business and he refuses to tell me any dates or locations. This is making the already hostile 10yo refuse to go to contact even more. DC have never been away from home this long without me and this is just adding to their distress.

Am I meant to know where they are? If so, how is this enforceable?

How horrendous for you, I think I've read some of your previous threads

Your poor DC

Who are you quoting, the ex or the judge?

It's clear there is a huge backstory here. Forgive me for not knowing it. But did you have legal representation in court? Did you get legal aid or free/low cost legal representation from a solicitor with experience in DVA?

You said the court proceedings have just finished, and you can't face any more, but it sounds like it was a bad outcome for you and the DCs - so I think you should take a deep breath and keep fighting. Appeal, with a better solicitor if you need one.

As a starting point you could call the free Rights of Women family law helpline and see what they say about the holiday. This info on their website might be useful:
rightsofwomen.org.uk/get-information/family-law/children-law-relocation-holidays-abduction/

badger I'm not lacking in empathy but as someone who has been where the OP is (right down to a paranoid ex whose perception was that I had 'all the power') I'm aware of how counterproductive some of the advice on this thread is.

With a 'shared residency' order in place the OPs ex is under no obligation to inform her where the DCs will be while they are in his care.
This is the legal board. That is the legal position.
I'm sure that the OP can seek emotional support on other MN boards if she needs it.

Massive backstory so forgive the shorthand...not eligible for legal aid, he is. He's spent about £45k taking me back and forth. Quoting cafcass. No evidence for anything as I tried for years to hide it. Therefore judge convinced I was hostile to contact. Hence not listening to a word I say and convinced I had influenced 10yo even though she quoted stuff I didn't even know about. DC both messed up, nightmares, self harm etc etc. Even abuse reported during contact has gone down as my hostility and they turned safeguarding back at me. Any more reports and they will invoke a care order since "parents can't get on for the children's sake".

Don't argue folks. I wanted the legal position. Maybe a little rant too. I'm not after sympathy

Did you have legal representation from a solicitor with DVA experience?

Sadly I don't think you do, surely you need to be informed of when "his" time starts and ends so you can enable contact to occur. But his time he can do what he wants so far as I am aware.

OP - I'm sorry if I was brutal - sadly these situations are not uncommon and we as mothers have to adapt and help our DCs cope the best they can.
I have conceded that securing the 'least worst' situation for my DD is the best I can do.

A lot of these judgements, from what I can tell, are fuck all to do with what is right for the DC. No one asks the DC generally. Its all about what 'rights' the parents have. And your ex, who was violent towards you, witnessed by your DC, seems to have everyone eating out of his hand. I wish it was rare, but from what I can gather anecdotally, its not rare at all. Abusers and manipulators often pull the wool over the eyes of supposed experts and professionals. for your OP. I hope you and your DC find a safe way through this.

God. I know you don't want sympathy but you have mine. I can't begin to imagine how horrendous this whole experience has been.

Thanks all. It's good (although very sad) to come on here and hear people understand and that people have witnessed similar. Sometimes you just think you are going insane. And sometimes you just need a realistic point of view, like "pick your battles".

reading this really gets my goat - there may be no physical threat to the DC but what about the emotional damage being done to them. This is what the courts don't get - the repercussions of this sort of behaviour can do long lasting damage and the DC are already anxious. Time you may be playing it down but your DC will pick up on this and this too will give them mixed messages. What reasonable parent refuses to give details to DC or their mother. No doubt if it was the mother doing this all hell would break lose. The judges need to catch up - you cannot protect your DC from EA by minimising it or pretending it does not happen - this is the reason there are so many fucked up individuals out there in the first place -if we taught our DC what is reasonable and unreasonable this cycle of EA would cease because our DC would not accept it as adults and hopefully with the right guidance they will not give it out either. ilove feel for you - know the insane feeling only too well

Time you may be playing it down but your DC will pick up on this and this too will give them mixed messages.

Early on, it did, I agree. She had panic attacks, was emotionally unstable and was supported by professionals.

What I have discovered over time is that I can minimise my ex's impact on my DD by letting him believe that he is in control and getting what he wants. I have learnt to bite my tongue and accept that while some of what he does I disagree with, my fighting it does her more damage.

So, if keeping it a secret from me where they are going keeps him happy, so be it. If conceding to his demand that he has 50:50 care to the minute over the school holidays appeases him, I'll accomodate it.
If disregarding the "right of first refusal" agreement gives him a kick, then I just pretend I don't know that DD was in the care of her grandparents for a week.

That way, when I do resist something (such as his demands around schooling), and DD is caught up in the fallout, she has a strong emotional foundation to rely on, rather than starting from an unstable position.

It's by no means ideal, but I am confident that I am raising a resilient DD who can develop coping strategies and responses to deal with manipulative and abusive people in her life.

I have no idea re legalities but
The quotes you give are heartbreaking. They read like they are written by an EA spouse.

I have never been one that has thought any parent has to tell the other what they are doing with the children. But I think deliberately going out of your way to keep it secret is wierd.

If you are taking children away it's perfectly normal to share information with them, they tell their friends, grandparents, aunts etc.

Time - very wise.

Everyone deals with things the best way they can to minimise the hurt their kids feel.

Appalling to have to be put in this position.

time I totally get what you are saying and why you are doing this - these men are beyond reasonable and it takes its toll on us nevermind the DC - think we could share a lot of stories - this thread would be good on "relationships" - think i read somewhere on there where a father tried to protect his DC from the fallout of an EA mother by sticking with the marriage- the upshot is his relationship with his DC has failed as they feel he was weak for not getting them out. There is no easy answer but my view is the truth of any situation is always best no matter what the repercussions .

There is a physical threat too. And history. Every time I reported an incident, contact was increased in order to "reduce the conflict" and to teach the children there was no danger!!???

Are you serious I love this sounds totally mad -

I think many high conflict, complex cases would sound mad if you only listened to one person's account of it.

Sorry, but much of the advice on here is wrong.

With a shared care order he can take the children abroad without permission, as you can OP. All he needs is the passports. Does the order provide for the passports to be handed over?

Agree with Collaborate. If the order states that children live with you both, he can take them abroad for up to 28 days without your permission. Presuming he has passports of course.

Are you in England and Wales, OP? Just asking because of the comments you made about your ex getting legal aid and you didn't.

England. Yes the order provides for passports being handed over but it does say holidays have to be agreed with at least 28 days notice. I have notice of our recent holiday abroad but he turned up to collect DC from school and denied he had been told - now using this as the basis for not telling me about his holiday.

But not telling the children, even when this is causing distress? Surely this isn't right?

If the order states holidays agreed with a months notice, and he has refused, surely you don't have to let them go at all? He's the one breaking the order, not you.

The reason I asked where you were was that since 2013, legal aid for private family law matters has not been available unless there are allegations of domestic violence or abuse against the other party. I wasn't sure of how your ex managed to get the case funded.

This is a tricky one and I don't know the background so it is difficult to comment. Ideally, agreeing the holiday should mean that details are given and in a case where there is significant animosity, it's probably best to not put things in the order about agreeing. I would have put something in the preamble like 'the father agrees to notify the mother of any proposed overseas travel at least 28 days in advance and to provide an email copy of the airline travel confirmation' (and vice versa for you).

Now, the thing is that if you do not hand over the passports or allow the children to go, you will be in breach of a court order which has serious consequences. I am not sure how sympathetic the court will be as there seems to be some 'history' here about contact being increased in response to allegations- I am not sure whether the judge/cafcass view you as being obstructive (rightly or wrongly). Your correct course of action if you are concerned should be to restore the matter to court urgently and for the court to determine what happens regarding this holiday. This will of course be expensive and use up court resources and I wonder whether you would even get a hearing time before the holiday due to court vacation. It is likely that he will be able to take them (as the order states that he can) so I can't see that this is a sensible step for you to take. If it were restored to court, the judge would obviously want to know where he was going (but that fact is not enough for you to bring the matter back).

I don't think this sounds like a suspected abduction case- if he were a flight-risk there would be warning factors- like having employment/family connections overseas and limited ties to the UK along with previous threats to abduct. Therefore, I would in your case try to reassure your 10 year old that she will be fine (although of course he is being an arse not telling her where they are going).

I can see this situation continuing in the future though, unless the order is tightened up and things are not left loose for the two of you to agree.

If the order states holidays agreed with a months notice, and he has refused, surely you don't have to let them go at all?

It depends exactly what the wording of the order is. I wouldn't really be happy about recommending this. He has notified her that he will be taking them away and I am guessing that the order specifies certain dates that the children will spend with the father, so she would be in breach of the order by refusing to make the children available. If she is in doubt, she should be the one to restore it to court rather than deciding that he has breached the order so she doesn't need to comply with it either. Unless it is clearly worded in the order that Dad cannot take them abroad unless mum agrees (which would be contrary to the rule that shared care/living with orders entitle parents to take children abroad without permission).

If in doubt, seek legal advice (which is always my recommendation- people on a forum won't have the ins and outs of this case and it sounds like it may be quite a complicated one).