Am I entitled to know where the DC are on holiday?

[ilovemilton]

Shared care order. Two weeks court ordered holiday in August and one in October.

He is taking the children, 10 and 7, away on holiday during these weeks. He says the details of such are non of my business and he refuses to tell me any dates or locations. This is making the already hostile 10yo refuse to go to contact even more. DC have never been away from home this long without me and this is just adding to their distress.

Am I meant to know where they are? If so, how is this enforceable?

Because he's clearly a dick. Why would you trust a parent who upsets his won children to score points with his ex? I wouldn't.

they wouldn't be going unless I knew where, when, with who and that they were happy about it.

Persistent blocking of contact could result in the OP losing residency - particularly as she already has a shared care order with her ex - the consequence of contempt of court is not always just a slap on the wrist - this is very risky advice.

It isn't advice at all, its merely a personal opinion. But as I would never be in that situation, its hypothetical for me. OP shouldn't be taking advice from anyone on here, she should see a qualified solicitor.

freedom literally tens of thousands of DCs get caught up in their parents bitterness during and after separation.
Those parents are not a flight risk, or a danger to their DCs.

I've been where the OP is, and know from experience that the best thing for the DCs is to be breezy and low key about it to reduce their anxiety and stress. Sadly, having a child with a dick means that you give up being able to influence, or even know, every aspect of your DCs life.

The law will not support you - unless you can prove that the dick is also a risk, then you can't do anything about it.

The ten year old is old enough to have their wishes on contact listened to, and if his behaviour is making them not want contact, the law will listen to that.

Sorry OP - Time's correction is right - I had read your post as if your ex were taking the children abroad.

the law will listen to that.

they may listen but they wont always act on it.

I kind of agree with time I don't think you need to worry about the details, they aren't really relevant. the children wont be in danger with their father, they have 2 weeks with him and he can do what he wants in that time. Same stands for when they are with you.

The wishes and feelings of every DC are considered by court in an age appropriate way and if the OP chooses to go back to court to request an amendment to the contact order, then CAFCASS will be required to write a report which the Court will consider. Based on the OPs comments, I have the impression the CAO has not been in place long, so I'm assuming it is a process that they have been through recently.

However, the OPs question was clear - is she entitled to know where the DCs are when in their fathers care ? The answer is no, unless it is specifically written into the order, no matter how much of an arse her ex is - she can't withhold contact unless she believes he is a risk to their safety.

What an arse that man is. Imagine saying that to your child ffs. He's shooting himself in the foot - all these mind games are going to make the kids refuse to go with him soon.

Many countries do require written permission from the other parent to enter the country, so this is not just about being able to withhold that kind of information purely because you can. I personally know someone who very nearly was refused entry to Canada because they didn't have written permission from her DSS' mum, even though it was simply a case of not knowing the rules rather than deliberately not giving permission iyswim, and South Africa for instance have clamped down on this very heavily recently.

You are required to give written permission for your child to leave the country with one parent, though this isn't always enforced.

And it's about common courtesy rather than anything else. In the current climate where threats do exist and incidents do occur, it's not unreasonable to want to know where your children are when something happens e.g. In a holiday resort somewhere.

And it is controlling in the extreme to expect the ten year old to keep secrets.

I don't tell my eXH where we're going because we don't go abroad as a rule. But my DS does. If we were going abroad though I would still send him flight numbers and hotel details. There's just no reason for him not to know.

You need legal advice OP. Your ex is behaving in an underhand manner and I'd be worried too if I was you. Get advice, now. Yes, he could be taking them on a plane to Scotland, NI, Cornwall, or he could be bluffing and they're driving to Scarborough, but his secretive manner and asking your DC to keep this secret from you is unpleasant, at best. You should know where your DC are at all times (as should he). I'd be really upset and alarmed to not know where my kids are for two weeks at a time .

I am upset and alarmed. It is just about control and being a dick. I have tried to be breezy with the kids about it and tell them they will have fun but "how can you say that when no one will tell us where we are going"; and to a 10yo who already expresses suicidal thoughts about the imposed contact with her abusive father.

Court process only just ended and I cannot face or afford to return to court.

This is the first block of time longer than a weekend that they have spent there and this is how it starts.

"they have 2 weeks with him and he can do what he wants in that time"

might be true but its pretty hideous if "what he wants" is making his 10 yo seriously unhappy!

Hardly contact in the best interest of the child is it? It makes the children sound like possessions who he isn't allowed to physically break but can do what he wants with otherwise, including psychological harm...

OP can I ask why this went to court? I.e. Was he pushing for more access/are there other issues? Given your ten year old is anxious about going there how has this come about?

The OP has had a very long and complex time in court IIRC from other threads she has posted. It sounds like a hideous situation for the children on both sides.

10yo who already expresses suicidal thoughts

Bloody hell! Did the judge know about that when the court order was made?

Hardly contact in the best interest of the child is it? It makes the children sound like possessions who he isn't allowed to physically break but can do what he wants with otherwise, including psychological harm...

As a PP has said, the OP's DS would have been able to express his opinions about spending time with his dad to the court, usually via a Wishes and Feelings or Section 7 report by CAFCASS.

As the OP says that the court case very recent, it seems likely that the court have taken into account the wishes and feelings of the DC, along with evidence the OP has been able to submit about their DF's abuse.

Unfortunately, without a specific clause in the CAO to say that each parent must keep the other informed as to where they will be with the DCs. then the only law that applies is the one relating to travel abroad. If, as the OP has suggested, she and her ex have what used to be referred to as "joint residency" then not even that applies - parents with residency can remove the DCs from the country for a month without permission from the other parent, within the confines of any CAO.

If, as has been implied, the DC's have been let down by the court, and are required to be cared for by an abusive parent, then the only thing the OP can do is give her DC's coping strategies until such time as she is willing to go back to court.

You absolutely have a right to know they are your kids
Same as he absolutely has a right to take them

and more importantly perhaps DC have a right to know too

As a PP has said, very complex h/o DV that 10yo can remember vividly. No evidence, and since she decided at 6 that she wanted no contact, her views can never be classed as valid but just a fixed idea. Apparently she only knows what suicide is because of my job, so that isn't a valid point either.

On that basis, OP, then you may have to pick your battles. If you do not believe that your ex is going to abduct your DCs, or physically harm them (which presumably he could do during any weekend contact anyway) then you have to "accept" that you do not know where they are while they are in their fathers care, and just make sure that you are available (rather than, for instance, booking time away yourself) in the event that something occurs.

It's by no means acceptable, ideal, or how it should be, but that is the way the system works.

It will get "better" as your DCs get older - as you will have more confidence that they will be able to make independent contact with you if necessary.

So do you have to force her to go and do these contact visits with your ex?

Divorce and contact is so hideous. I remember going on holiday for two weeks at a time with my DF and 'D'SM and my DM wouldn't know exactly where we were going (she'd know what country, but nothing more). Usually we'd be in some rustic cottage with no phone so she couldn't have contacted us anyway. It's pretty common I think for one parent to not know where the other parent has taken the DC on holiday. I never appreciated how distressing it must've been for my DM, but I know now that it was.

So do you have to force her to go and do these contact visits with your ex?

My understanding is that it is shared residence, not just contact with their DF. Both parents are named as "with whom the DCs live" and it is set out when they live at each household. My arse of an ex would have demanded the same thing had we not managed to agree prior to court.

For the court to have specified that, there must have been evidence that it was necessary/in the best interests of the DCs.

It still follows the usual pattern of alternate weekends and one evening in the week. It's called shared care order "to take away the perceived power that mother has that makes her think she can make decisions about the children". Direct quote.

At one point I had to leave her crying in the street, ordered by the judge, she ran away and police were involved so they changed it to ex collecting from school "to take away the idea that the child can choose with whom she spends her time".

Gosh, timefor, completely lacking in empathy much?

OP I'm so sorry you are going though this and of course you, and any mother or parent would want to know where their children were going on holiday.