Am I entitled to know where the DC are on holiday?

[ilovemilton]

Shared care order. Two weeks court ordered holiday in August and one in October.

He is taking the children, 10 and 7, away on holiday during these weeks. He says the details of such are non of my business and he refuses to tell me any dates or locations. This is making the already hostile 10yo refuse to go to contact even more. DC have never been away from home this long without me and this is just adding to their distress.

Am I meant to know where they are? If so, how is this enforceable?

Haven't read all the thread.
If he leaves the UK with them and you both have PR but not residence order he needs permission.

If it is a UK flight or domestic flight inc Channel Islands the kids don't need a passport. Birth cert or photo id fine. Infact Flybe don't ask for kids ID at all. Website says parents can vouch.

If he leaves the UK with them and you both have PR but not residence order he needs permission

There is a shared residence order (now called a child arrangements order) but the complicating factor is that the OP says that holidays abroad have to be agreed (although I am unclear on the exact wording).

I think the thing we are clear on is that he would not be committing a criminal offence by taking them out of the country (due to the court order). The issue is whether the OP can refuse to let the children go or refuse to hand over the passports (which I have cautioned against).

I have no idea about the legal side of this OP but just wanted to give you these

I can not begin to imagine what you and your children are going through.
Your ex sounds horrible if he thinks it's ok to treat a child like he is. Dreadful

Sorry I got 28 days mixed up with another section...

If either party seeks to take the children on holiday they must give 8 weeks notice and objections are to be raised prior to the holiday being booked. If there are any disagreements the person wishing to take the children on holiday must make an application to the court.

Then the part about me handing over passports if asked.

Ah OK, that's quite different (but again not the most helpful thing to be included in the order as it is inviting continued litigation).

What was the process regarding this holiday? When did he inform you of his intention to take them abroad?

If I were you, I would write him an email setting out the requirement according to the terms of the order and state that he needs to inform you of the dates and the location of the holiday without further delay, otherwise you will not be releasing the passports. This gives him the opportunity to still take them if he has already booked it (although you can remind him that he should give 8 weeks notice in the future). You can inform him that it is his responsibility to restore the matter to court if he will not comply with your request.

I think that this puts you in a position where you come across as reasonable in the eyes of the court. He has screwed up this time, but you are still offering him the chance to go if he tells you where. Try to keep the email factual and objective.

But the whole 'the person who wants to take them should return the matter to court' is awful. It means that the other parent can just refuse to agree to perfectly reasonable holiday requests (I am thinking about if you want to take them away).

Yes I know. He has made it clear that our recent holiday will be the last we ever have.

He told the children about two weeks ago, when he took them shopping for clothes for it. He told them mummy mustn't know. They of course told me and a whole host of ridiculous conversation followed.

Wow. Well, this case will inevitably end up back in court then. Was this order written by the judge/legal adviser or was it drafted by your ex's solicitor? Just that if I had two parents who could not come to agreements and where there was a history of animosity, I would not draft an order requiring them to agree and inviting them back to court each time they couldn't. If you do end up going back to court, you should request that this requirement is changed. It's clearly not workable. It would seem easier to have a requirement that each parent gives the other full details of the holiday in advance (and then the parent who OBJECTS can take the matter to court if they really want).

Yes I know. He has made it clear that our recent holiday will be the last we ever have.

He told the children about two weeks ago, when he took them shopping for clothes for it. He told them mummy mustn't know. They of course told me and a whole host of ridiculous conversation followed.

Oops don't know how that reposted.

Written by ex's solicitor.

On the plus side, he legal aid ends at the end of September so after that maybe I could hire a solicitor...

Did he get the LA pre-2013 and the proceedings have been going on since then? Or did he make allegations against you? Once the certificate of legal aid is discharged, he won't get it again and I suspect he will be less keen to drag you through the courts. Though you're of course still stuck with the order saying that you have to return the matter if he won't agree to your holiday.

Although you are of course entitled to get a solicitor at any time, regardless of whether he has legal aid. A lot of firms will offer fixed fee unbundled services such as representation at a hearing, so it does not have to cost the earth.

He got it in April 2013 but didn't start proceedings until the September.

Exactly my thinking. I've had my holiday this year. He is being unreasonable on a daily basis. Once the certificate is expired, or once he refuses another holiday, that is my plan. This order is unworkable but with his solicitor still around I doubt it will change. So I'm just biding my time. And biting my lip every single day...

"he legal aid ends at the end of September so after that maybe I could hire a solicitor..."

Are you saying that you have not yet hired a solicitor?

i have been following this thread with interest - ilove how you have managed so far in all this without a solicitor is beyond me - I have legal representation and I am still facing battles with my x but I am slowly coming to the conclusion that my legal team have not been up to the mark - its cost me far too much and im not sure ive got anywhere - what i have noticed though is my solicitors website has significantly changed since my case with them. thisisafakename just want to say thanks for giving this lady some support & good advice - this situation is a complete head screw and sadly some legal people don't fully get the emotional wrangle we have to go through when dealing with these x's. Having the extra doubt that what we are being told is not completely kosha just adds to the horrendous time we are going through.

"how you have managed so far in all this without a solicitor is beyond me"

Well she hasn't exactly managed, has she?! Her ex has completely manipulated the system, with no solicitor she had no chance against him, and now there is a court order which was written by his solicitor and is a complete disaster for her and her DCs.

In my book that's not managing. You go up against an abusive man in court, you need a solicitor.

He's spent over £40k of legal aid. If I had the equivalent bill, I would be homeless by now.

Oh FFS.
Did you even ask Women's Aid for advice?
I bet you could have got legal aid yourself, or some other kind of free or low cost help.
If you'd had legal representation it might not have been so long and drawn out.
You would certainly have got a better outcome.

Sorry but we don't have nearly enough detail to know whether the OP would have got a "better outcome" or not.

We don't need any more detail to know that a solicitor would have been a good idea.

Did you even ask Women's Aid for advice? I bet you could have got legal aid yourself, or some other kind of free or low cost help

Probably not actually. By the time her ex issued his application, LA was no longer available for these types of disputes unless there were recent allegations of domestic abuse (ie within past 12 months, not historical). Even before that, it was only available if you were on a low income or benefits.

Women's Aid are a great charity who do fantastic work, but they are not a magic solution to every problem. I don't really know how contacting them would have assisted the OP greatly.

And I agree with others who say that we cannot predict whether she would have gotten a different outcome if she had been represented. Most of the time judges will follow the recommendations of Cafcass and if Cafcass is against you, it doesn't really matter if you have an expensive lawyer. The only thing I can say should have been done better is the drafting of the order- it encourages both parties to be difficult and obstructive and almost guarantees that the matter will come back to court. But that's the fault of the person drafting (who didn't do his own client any favours) and the judge/legal adviser.

We had been left for 12 months before he issued his application. He never asked to see the children in all that time.

We are now just over a week away from proposed holiday. He is still refusing to disclose any information and apparently his solicitor is on holiday. The firm says they think his legal aid has now been discharged and so I can leave messages.

So not only do I not know where the holiday is, and completely unable to reassure the kids, I don't even know when to be available. It's ridiculous!

Kids have returned from overnight contact complaining about shoes not fitting (had same pair for 18 months), disgusting state of house again, he hasn't communicated about illnesses. It's a complete nightmare.

Talk to a solicitor! There are free legal helplines, eg Rights of Women family law helpline.

Totally agree - get some legal advice now. Your ex is being a total arse and is not, by the sound of it, keeping to his side of the agreement. Find out your rights and obligations now!

www.citizensadvice.org.uk/relationships/gender-violence/domestic-violence-and-abuse/#h-getting-help-from-a-local-domestic-violence-service-or-a-solicitor

This helpline is open tonight (7-9pm). CALL THEM.
rightsofwomen.org.uk/get-advice/family-law/