Mumsnet could do better (part deux)

[stomachameleon]

Ok I have taken the bait because I think it's important we have somewhere to chat and decompress.

There is an awful lot of name changing going on and we must remember that although it should be, this is not a safe space. We are followed here and that is worth considering (especially if you don't want to be deleted)

I am grateful for all the love and support though and I thank each and every one of you. You are all stronger than you know. I wish I had something profound to say but I don't...: this will have to do!

I actually stated that I believed Judaism should be taught at a higher level in relation to RE rather than just history I apologise if it didn’t come across this way. I think Islam and Christianity are studied much deeper than Judaism in mainstream schools when it comes to RE lessons and all three should be taught at a much more equal level.

I don’t understand what you mean by this? Do you think we are banned from Gaza? There have always been plenty of volunteering opportunities in the West Bank and Gaza and they are open to everyone. It is also documented that Jewish nurses, doctors and journalists have been to Gaza - Dan Cohen is probably one of the more well known journalists to have been there.

I have a Biblical Hebrew GCSE👍🏼 I was sent to Jewish school because I am Jewish and it was important to my parents that my faith was included in my education not the politics of a nation🙃

@Wflwer Tell us some more about this "huge victim mentality"? I'm hardly 'pro-Israel' but even I find that hugely offensive given our recent history (still in living memory for very elderly family members of posters on here), not to mention wildly insensitive after 7/10.

What is the intention behind your AMA? It's really weird that you would choose to do this - whatever your views on Israel - given the rancid antisemitism on this website, which has been out of control since October. It just looks like you're trying to feed the antisemites IMO. There's been threads and threads with examples of actual antisemitism on display at the marches, that you apparently haven't seen. What's your opinion on that and how that's causing a great deal of fear among British Jews?

Great, so then you must be very aware of the religious and historical importance of Israel to Jews 👍🏻

I still don't get why anyone would send their kids to a school where you don't agree with a lot of what's being taught and then pull them out of various classes. You'd surely make sure to choose a school that suits your beliefs? Like, I wouldn't send my kids to an ultra-orthodox school. It wouldn't suit us. I definitely wouldn't send them to an ultra-orthodox school and then remove them from any classes that are too ultra-orthodox for my liking. Just seems like a bit of an odd choice to me.

ime being taught about a faith is not the same as the communal experience of living with it.
Theory and practice can be worlds apart.

Yes, I understood what you said but tbh it sounds like your historical education was severely lacking if you genuinely believe your ancestors were subjected to the atrocities of the Holocaust for purely religious reasons and that the resulting catastrophic intergenerational trauma is just a “huge victim mentality”.

Invalidating and denying the ancestral, religious and historical importance of Israel to Jews, fudging the issues of ethnicity and culture, and dismissing the significance of Zionism to Jews- whether they agree with it or not- your thread is coming across as a plea for approval and acceptance from those who will never really accept Jewish people but will tolerate those who fall in line.

Also, the whole but did they really need Israel? angle panders to the idea that all those Jews were perfectly happy to just keep moving about and assimilating and look how well they’ve done! when diaspora is just a word that sanitises the millennia of exile, purges and persecution behind it.

It is very well documented by Jewish academics especially in terms of Israel. The Jewish Journal put a piece out last September about it a piece I don’t necessarily agree with due to the way it mentions holocaust education but I can understand where the Rabbi is coming from. Collective victim hood is the foundation of Israeli societies identity this is well documented academically and even written about previously in the Times of Israel in opinion pieces. I am more than happy to search out some papers and link them here for you to read. Also it is not wildly insensitive after 7/10 - it has been academically discussed for over 30 years and it will continue to be discussed.

I did state I am one person I cannot be everywhere at these marches and have also spent a great deal of time within the Jewish bloc due to attending with friends however at the times I have been amongst the general public I have not personally seen anything antisemitic and again I am one person in a huge march. I also discussed the fact that there are absolutely some people that use the excuse that Zionists are weaponising antisemitism to display actual antisemitic behaviours and beliefs which is why I think there needs to be a clear line between anti Zionism and antisemitism.

Because I have been to both areas and think it is important that people hear about the vibrance of people that have been described as “human animals” etc. Also I mentioned the fact I went to work in education and therefore not all questions have been about the conflict a number of them have been about the Palestinian educational systems.

My parents wanted me to attend Jewish school because I am Jewish and wanted me to have a Jewish education. I was originally left in the classes but growing up in the household I had grown up in I continuously questioned teachers when they discussed Israel and was removed from class or given into trouble - my parents made their feelings known and asked that I just be removed if the teachers found being questioned or allowing a different perspective so difficult. So no they did not originally want me taken out of these classes when I started at the school.
I went to a non religious primary school and my parents did not like how little was taught about Judaism hence my earlier comment about the lack of education on Judaism in RE in mainstream schools.

Or perhaps I live with the idea that the persecution of another people does not secure my freedom?

Like the persecution of my people did not give anyone else freedom through history? I never said do they really need Israel and it is historically shown that western nations refused to take in Jewish refugees after WW2 including the USA. Herzl himself discussed the fact that to create Israel antisemites would be Zionists biggest ally.

Because I have been to both areas and think it is important that people hear about the vibrance of people that have been described as “human animals” etc.

Actually, I think that quote refers to Hamas and not the ordinary citizens of Gaza.

And you would not want to imply that this is a general view of the Gazans, would you?

Personally, I think it is inappropriate for Hamas. I'd call them something far worse.

I think we both know that it doesn’t - the language used and the explicit statement from the president himself saying that it is an entire nation responsible shows that it doesn’t.

I understand that that is your opinion but unfortunately the facts do not align with your opinion.

I think we both know that it doesn’t - the language used and the explicit statement from the president himself saying that it is an entire nation responsible shows that it doesn’t.

I understand that that is your opinion but unfortunately the facts do not align with your opinion.

How dare you tell me what you think I really know? It's quite clear that Netanyahu was referring to Hamas and not to ordinary Gazans or Palestinians. And after what Hamas did, rightfully so.

Your made-up facts speak only for themselves.

“All the civilian population in Gaza is ordered to leave immediately. We will win. They will not receive a drop of water or a single battery until they leave the world”
”we need to deal a blow that’s hasn’t been seen in 50 years and take down Gaza”
”there is no such thing as uninvolved civilians in Gaza”
“No choice but to make Gaza a place that is temporarily or permanently impossible to live in”
“Who are the ‘poor’ women of Gaza? They are all the mothers, sisters or wives of Hamas murderers”
“Civil collapse will be bring the end of the war closer”
“Finish them off and don’t leave anyone behind. Erase the memory of them, their families, mothers and children. These animals can no longer live.”
“We know our motto: there are no uninvolved civilians.”
“Turn the strip into a slaughterhouse… those in front of us are human animals.”

sounds totally like all this statements only refer to Hamas.

Thanks! Another thread to have to avoid

@Wflwer Many of those living in the South of Israel and attacked on October 7th were peace activist and advocated for Gazan civilians as you are, yet they too were murdered by the very people they had been helping just because they were living in Israel/Jewish.

I'm curious how you align your Jewish identity whilst supporting those who have just attacked us as a nation?

What do you mean us? My Jewish identity has nothing to do with Israel.
Nowhere have I stated I support Hamas I also do not support the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank either.

Or perhaps I live with the idea that the persecution of another people does not secure my freedom?

Perhaps you’re not the only person who lives with this idea? My apologies for not recognising your unique moral superiority straight away. I don’t believe freedom has ever been the motivation for persecuting Jews. What exactly does this freedom from Jews look like to you?

You said Zionism removed “the Jewish Problem” from Western nations and pushed Jewish people towards Israel for safety at the expense of people who had nothing to do with Nazism or the Holocaust. Now I see backtracking and contradiction with a bit of Herzl thrown in for good measure.

It all sounds very confused - caring about Palestinians does not have to involve pandering to a distortion and redefinition of Zionism and Jewish identity rooted in anti-Jewish racism and Western supremacy, but enjoy your moment in the sun.

From 1921 “Zionism and the Jewish Problem”
https://www.jstor.org/stable/27533441?seq=26
From 1946 “Is Zionism the solution to the Jewish Problem”
https://www.loc.gov/rr/amed/pdf/palestine4/Is-Zionism-the-solution-of-the-Jewish-problem.pdf

Both prior to the creation of Israel and discussing “the Jewish problem” in societies.

Sadly history has shown us that Jews will always be grouped together regardless of religious level, sympathies or alliances. This was true in medieval times, during the Holocaust and now on October 7th. Saying that your Jewishness has nothing to do with Israel is naive.

(This doesn't mean that I'm against having sympathy for innocent Palestinians currently suffering. However,) opening a thread aligning with Gaza/West bank during a sensitive time for your Jewish brethren is very provocative and I struggle to see how you reconcile this with your Jewish identity.

Do not equate my Jewishness with Zionism. Thank you.

Thanks for the links, I’ll be sure to consider the opinions of American Episcopalian clergyman, John Punnet Peters in the Sewanee Review and Lebanese British historian, Albert Hourani- published by the Arab Office in Washington DC, sponsored by the Governments of the Arab States (Egypt, Iraq, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Transjordan and Yemen)- as the definitive last word on the subject.

@Wflwer could you take the incessant attention seeking behaviour back to your own thread now please?

@25milesfromhome, I'm an American Episcopalian. The Episcopal Church was an absolute theological mess in the 1920s, so much so that the prayerbook from that time was rewritten from top to bottom. At my Episcopal church yesterday, the sermon was mainly about the evils of anti-semitism and how it's common to see anti-semitic acts rise as Holy Week approaches due to the outdated and incorrect view that the Jews were responsible for the crucifixion of Jesus. It was clearly the Romans who put him to death, something that even the Catholic Church has taught for many years. And, of course, Jesus himself was a Torah-observant Jew. So please accept my apologies for the views and writings of Rev Peters.

I’ll be sure to consider the opinions of American Episcopalian clergyman, John Punnet Peters in the Sewanee Review

@MissConductUS I do accept your apologies but I don’t think you should feel the need to apologise at all! I appreciate hearing about the sermon at your church- as someone frequently on the receiving end of ‘Jesus killer’ banter (“It’s just a joke, can’t you take a joke?!”) at Easter when I was younger, it’s good to hear that being challenged.