Mumsnet is getting worse

[LondonMummer]

Seriously. Is it the same few people just name changing or is it really this toxic in the UK? There is so much poisonous Jewish hatred on here. I'm not talking hatred of Israel, just vile antisemitism on so many posts now.

I truly think I have to step away before I lose faith in humanity. Why does MN seem to attract so many hateful posters? Maybe it's the anonymity.

I can't keep calling it out. Im exhausted and actually deeply disturbed by it now.

I'm a hippy wanker too! 😎 This is why I'm appalled at what I end up coming out with, in response to what comes across as an endless avalanche of casual cruelty. Maybe I'm reckless because I'm not Jewish myself, just enraged by antisemitism.

I don't think my absence from/presence on these boards will make the slightest dent in anything. Especially as israelilefty's AMA thread is so brilliant, or at least it is when I let her get a word in edgeways 😉

I'm not Jewish. I'm also ex-military, so I see the war somewhat differently than most. I don't consider myself particularly hawkish either because I know that it's the young people in the army who will bear the burden of any armed conflict.

So, I struggle a bit with the issue you raise. Hamas knew precisely how Israel would respond to the mass slaughter of Israeli civilians. They've also used Palestinians as human shields as a deliberate strategy, so I see them as having less concern for civilian casualties than the Israelis.

Israel had no good choices in this situation. They certainly couldn't ignore the 7/10 attacks, especially when Hamas vowed to do them "again and again." When someone says they're going to kill you, you have to take it seriously.

Let's hope the Egyptian peace plan gets some traction.

Yep I think we all are struggling with what happened on the 7th October. Not one single way to deal with it. I think some people are maybe dealing with it by being a little harder about the deaths than others. It is a on going trauma as not over yet. So a trauma reaction is perfectly reasonable I think. I definitely am sometimes way more tough with my reaction to posts than normal. Some days it all just hits me harder. I can't imagine how the users with family in Israel feel if I someone with only distant cousins I don't know there feel this way.

This is not a normal time and the best we can do is give each other some slack about are posts sometimes. Pretty sure even my truly wonderful self posts something that annoy some of you at times or isn't exactly your own political view.

After the pogrom when there were more Muslim users about I was also giving them a lot of slack in case they had family in Gaza. Sometimes I could have jumped in and pulled them up on the odd thing but we all have moments of posting emotionally rather than logically or posting without emotion to protect ourselves don't we.

I think it probably doesn't do to be too far entrenched in any side. I like to think I can at least listen and consider other points of view.

Whatever way you look at it it's a dreadful situation.

I didn't realise you weren't Jewish - honestly, the support of non-Jewish people on here who have spoken up against antisemitism has meant EVERYTHING.

Yeah her thread is great - so informative and absolutely pitch-perfect. One of the positives for me has been learning from Israeli posters, and also other Jewish women who are way more knowledgeable than I am about the conflict. On the other hand, ask me about antisemitism on the Left and I could chew the ear off you ad infinitum. Don't stop posting by the way. If it gets you down, just remember a lot of them are gaslighters with no interest in dealing with facts and it's all 'my side is right yours is wrong'. Oh, and some of them really don't like Jews.

Thank you @etmoiandme . Please just drop me a line if you think I start doing more harm than good, though! and I will STFU 😶

My best friend at school was Jewish. I always wondered why she never wanted to do anything on Saturdays 😁 In the playground, when we were about 11, she used to lead me and a couple of other friends to stomp round and round in a circle, rhythmically chanting "Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego!!!" I think she just liked the sound of the names. I thought she'd made them up, I was in my 40s when I found out they're in the Book of Daniel...! ah, we had such fun.

My first husband was Jewish, too, but that's another story!

@MissConductUS I'm aware of that which is why I said I'm probably being naive. I absolutely know the implications of a ceasefire without a subsequent and meaningful diplomatic solution. Much of my disappointment with Israel has been more a long-term thing re the WB aggression, not to mention the implications these actions have on worldwide Jewry, many of us with no family connection to Israel. When I first heard the news on Oct 7th I didn't take in quite what had happened at first - to my shame my first response was panic and "how are Israel going to react and therefore how bad is antisemitism in the UK going to get again". Just when it seemed to have calmed down after the trauma (for many) of the Corbyn years. It took me a good 10 minutes or so to fully comprehend what Hamas had actually done and my DH pretty much having to spell it out for me, and he's not even Jewish.

@Pizdietz Please don't STFU. ❤Everyone's got different views and that's fine. I think a lot of my frustration comes from having witnessed some very loud, right wing Jewish people on Twitter over the last 7 or 8 years. Some of them have not covered themselves in glory IMO and have basically given ammo to the Jew-hating elements of the hard left. So I prob get a bit tetchy on MN about some stuff that I shouldn't really.

Ooohhhhhhhhhh... OK, I see!

This is why I avoid X / Insta / TikTokn/ Facebook... these places are very toxic. Imagine how depressed and paranoid I'd be if I dared dip my toes in any of those!

Having invested time over the years in MN, particularly on threads about abusive relationships (offering a helping hand wherever I could), I'd always hoped MN was a bit different. That's why it came as such a shock when I ventured on here after 7 October and found such extraordinary levels of indifference, antipathy and hatred.

Deleting my previous account and changing usernames now and then is easy enough for me to do, but I can't imagine what it must feel like to be dealing with this kind of thing in the real world, as a Jewish person in this hostile environment. I really wish I could help.

Pretty sure even my truly wonderful self posts something that annoy some of you at times or isn't exactly your own political view.

You know what @Trulywonderful, I can say hand on heart none of your posts have annoyed me, or you @Stomacharmeleon .

I guess my comment was a bit harsh actually and I probably shouldn't have slipped it in there as it's only one or two comments a while back that really got my back up a bit (although they really did piss me off). And you're right - things are not normal just now and we're all trying to navigate a truly hideous situation. And I'm very fortunate not to have the additional worry of the safety of family in Israel.

That's why it came as such a shock when I ventured on here after 7 October and found such extraordinary levels of indifference, antipathy and hatred.
Yes this is it exactly - I thought the antisemitism that had been rife on Twitter wouldn't really emerge with the same toxicity on MN (although it did pop up now and again prior to 7/10). It's been really shocking to see and not something I'll forget I don't think. Right, I need to go out now but thanks for your words @Pizdietz

I followed the 2014 conflict closely, and in fact did strongly condemn the Israeli airstrikes and civilian casualty levels. I looked at way too many horrible images and wound up quite distressed over the time period.

When I saw the initial footage of 7 October, I knew immediately what the response would be. Because of that, I just mentally distanced myself in advance from it. I prefer to focus on the geopolitics of it, the bigger picture stuff, as that's a way of maintaining distance emotionally as well.
I'm on twitter a lot, and I'll sometimes see something that pierces that detachment and the pathos of it.

I also don't feel in a position, this time, to critisise the Israeli response, because who am I to demand that they continue have Hamas as a neighbour, after what happened?
So I condemned 2014, but I cannot condemn this. I do absolutely hate all of it though.

I'd also genuinely be happy to critisise any Israeli actions that I think are out of order but it is inevitable that ten other posters have got there first, and those posters won't be interested in any sort of careful discussion about it, either.

I also didn't realise that Hamas would want to do what they did on October 7. I had no idea.

I see the Hamas apologists and their faithful sock puppets who just rilly rilly hate Israel for no specific reason are out in force today. You’d think they’d be happier on Instagram/ Xitter where they wouldn't have to cloak their antisemitism in impassioned euphemisms.

This is how naive I was: aside from the antisemitism, which I was stupid enough to think was not widespread... I didn't know that more than a handful of men at a time could take such pleasure in torturing and degrading women. I knew it happened in the world, obviously knew about it from accounts of psychopathic individuals or bizarre cults... and war situations: rape has always been a weapon of war, and all wars have ugly scenes involving rogue elements. But I didn't know that entire societies could take such delight in it. The vicious parade of Shani Louk's broken body, the spitting, shoving and obscene gesturing at that poor girl with the bloodied track pants... this all happened out in the streets, an open celebration. It all seems like the tip of a massive iceberg of misogynistic contempt and violence. I don't know what to do with that information.

The ones out today have a limited knowledge of just about anything conflict related judging by the thread I have been on. They won't last a second on twitter other than retweeting others posts.

That is why mumsnet is a safe option for them. They can post inaccurate information or rubbish without instantly getting called out in it. Most mumsnet users are not keyed up on antisemitism or the properganda around the conflict and definitely not the latest information available. Even when called out everyone here has to stick to mumsnet rules and be ever so ever so nice in the way we call it out.

You just nailed what I've been thinking for a long time.

Pizdietz, I have known for a few years that there are those in Gaza and surrounding areas capable of such behaviour. It took a long time to get my head around the idea of that. However the pogrom still is difficult digest even though I have thought such a thing could happen in Israel. I have even read about and seen photos of similar happening to Jewish towns and villages before 1948. Which has stayed with me years later in graphic detail. Nothing has prepared me for this modern day pogrom though. Let alone the fact that Hamas have declared they will repeat it over and over again.

The idea that some users on mumsnet still try to sneakily defend the actions of Hamas now is beyond belief. Let alone there are people out there that very much think those actions are resistance. Resistance is fighting the IDF or hitting military targets. The pogrom was not an action of resistance. It was something completely different and about as evil as human beings can get.

I can only echo what @Trulywonderful has said. After being asked nicely by Mumsnet I am now actively avoiding interaction with some and ignoring and reporting those that are so ridiculous.

Some of the more recent threads and train of thought betray their ignorance. And name changing ain't gonna wash... some are too obvious.

This is meant as general observation.
Nothing personal governor :)

MissC I share that view too. I am not ex military, but when countries suffer as Israel did at the hands of Hamas it is Hamas that causes the result. This is what war is.
There has been a vast amount of posts on MN which are just taken straight from Hamas propaganda or dubious websites as if it were the truth.

It was something completely different and about as evil as human beings can get.

I can't help thinking of the horror movie The Ring, where they feel sorry for the creepy girl and what she experienced trapped in the well, and give her an honourable burial to put her to rest, only for her to come back with a vengeance:
"You don't want to hurt anyone."
"But I do. And I'm sorry. It won't stop."

Not trying to trivialise things with this comparison to a horror film, just that I worry about a similar naivety playing out when threads on here discuss how to deal with this level of terrorism, which is evil on a scale we find hard to fathom.

I think that is the thing people do find it impossible to fathom, therefore many people are trying to believe a narrative that makes some sense to them. Frankly the true doesn't make much sense if you try to look at it with any logic. Exstemism and violence to the degree we have seen isn't logic is it.

There are others of course that are true vile Exsteme Jew haters themselves and totally enjoy the idea of what happened and is happening. You can sense that in the way they post. The majority seem to have sod off to twitter or something now. However I see the odd one hanging about still. Makes my skin crawl the way they write posts.

@Trulywonderful the last answer on the AMA was interesting and made clear that lots are seeing this situation through western ideals.

Funny that not one of the most extremes are on there questioning someone in Israel (actually one is)

I have said myself on some threads we are seeing things from a very western protective and not thinking of Israel as a middle eastern country. So sounds right to me.

A lot of people seem to be a bit white saviour or something similar in their attitude to Gazens too. Basically a lot of people in the west presuming what the average Gazens thinks or taking Hamas officials and knowingly corrupt charity surveys as fact. There are a lot of videos and other evidence out there that provide a different opinion to what people think in Gaza about just about everything. They are not one singular mind with the same opinion and plenty have wildly different opinions just like we do in the west.

Yes. I'd also be curious to see a breakdown of views expressed by age category. I get the impression an awful lot of the critics who tend to oversimplify and express moral outrage are rather young. They seem to think war is a moral and political choice that is made freely.

I recognise a young man from the police hate crime link I have posted on the antisemitism thread

This is something I have been aware could happen because I work with hundreds of London teenagers every year. Still had my fingers crossed it would not happen though. The thing they want him for happened less than a mile away from my area, so it adds up

Can't remember his name but can get a couple of colleagues to see if they remember and just give the police the details I have which should make it easier to trace him.

Oh fuckwitty

Hey Truly, I have thank you! Lots of travelling and visiting various family members scattered across the country.

My mother, totally unprompted, said to me 'it's worrying, isn't it, the rise in antisemitism? Have these people forgotten what happened with Hitler? Is it happening again?'

Really wasn't expecting it to come up. But there are people out there who are noticing, and thinking it is not ok.