The mind numbing boredom of infertility IV

[PotatoesPastaAndBread]

Yes it's the return of the thread where we're so fucking bored of being infertile and talking about infertility and thinking about infertility and worrying and infertility and learning about infertility treatment and explaining infertility to other people and making up lies to cover up for going for infertility tests and treatment that we can't even be bothered to think of a better name for the thread.

Join us if you are barren, bored and bitter, or any combination of the above. We'll listen to your tails of woe when everyone you've ever met upduffs in an instant, accompany you through the trials of tests and treatment and commiserate the inevitable setbacks and disappointments.

Welcome to the ghetto.

When I can work out links, I'll post linnks to threads 1, 2 and 3

Sorry closephine85. That's shit. Your poor DH must be feeling pretty lousy. I don't know about supplements making it worse. My OH has been taking a multi-vit+mineral, extra zinc & vit C, & 200mg CoQ10. His test was good, but we don't have a 'baseline' to know if that combo helped. He's 52, with a history as a bit of a wild boy. He'd quit everything else but still smoked heavily when we met. I'm sure the CoQ10 must have helped.

Does your DH have any on ice that they could use for ICSI?

Thanks Fuzzy - nothing on ice unfortunately, will just have to hope we can get some better numbers when we go over in January :( ugh. Even though we weren't outwardly expecting any improvement I think we were both secretly hoping.

Hi closephine sorry to hear that. Don't know about vitamins worsening results but as I said in my last post DH's results improved after 3 months (we do have before and after results from 2 cycles to compare). He's on a cocktail of NHP men's fertility support, vit c, omega 3, antioxidants (cellguard forte) and CoQ10. Was your DH doing anything differently before the first test?

MrFuzzy lupus checks for blood clotting issues, the NHS tests don’t check for NK cells. There are only some very specialist tests that check for it

1. Blood tests that get sent to a lab in Chicago, that cost £1-2000, and are offered by a few select clinics in the UK

2. An endometrial biopsy to check for elevated uterine NK cells with the Coventry clinic (see the RMC thread for details). Self referral is £360

My Dr doesn’t find the NK cells tests particularly reliable, so he prescribes empirically. The Coventry clinic may prescribe prednisolone depending on the outcome of the biopsy. I don’t think they are particularly pro intralipids though - I’m not sure.

Immunes is very confusing - esp as it’s a controversial area and many clinics argue immunological causes for implantation failure and RPL don’t exist!

bean hurrah for getting going!

closephine I’m so sorry about DH’s latest SA, so disappointing for you. I’ve never heard about vitamins negatively affecting sperm count - though count and morphology can definitely vary massively from sample to sample. DH had concentration of 168m/ml when he did his sperm freeze, then on the day of EC just 1 month later it was 86m/ml. I know of several women whose DH had previously had normal morphology but then a poorer quality sample on the day, hence previous plan of IVF changed to ICSI accordingly. So I think levels can bounce up and down quite a bit. So it could well be that what went down may come up, as it were

Thanks for the info banana. Yes, there seem to be a lot of mixed opinions. I was pleased to read that omega 3 is given to help, as I've been on that for a while now.

Closephine, I agree with Banana on this one. On consultation day DHs count was 78m, and 3 weeks later on retrieval day it's up to 94m. How can it vary by 16m in just a few weeks? Your DH could find that another sample in a few weeks is completely different.

So....... had my retrieval. Only 6 eggs. They all seemed quite happy with that, and the consultant said it was only just below average. DH thinks it's great. I think it's shit! The consultant looked quite deflated when my face dropped and I said 'only 6!' But out of 11 follies I was expecting more to play with.

Turns out that my right ovary (which had 5 of the 6 eggs in it) was a bitch to get to. I was immediately in a lot of pain when I came around, and when the consultant came in he said 'I'm not surprised'. He said one nurse had to practically stand on my belly while another one pushed from the inside, because my ovary was tucked up behind a fibroid. He also had to 'dig around a lot' with the needle So, I'm now feeling like I've had major surgery with everything from the belly button down in a lot of pain. I'm also bloated like I'm 5 months pregnant! Hey ho. Let's hope it's worth it and I don't get a call tomorrow to say it was a complete waste of time!!!

Anyway, feet up, telly on, takeaway ordered. Rock n roll xx

Thanks Banana and Fuzzy - his counts do vary but unfortunately never been higher than 14million and more often closer to 3-4 million these days. It's the 0% morphology I'm mainly stressing about but hoping that's varying too and will jump back up a bit. He's no going for any more analyses before IVF now though so we won't find out until we're in Greece! Hearing both your DH's counts makes me realise quite how bad his are. I think because there's usually at least a few million there, I've been trying to kid myself all this time that 'it only takes one!' would eventually ring true for us as well.

Blue - he has done everything by the book, has always had a healthy lifestyle (not a big drinker, non smoker etc), so didn't really change much in that respect after his first test apart from the addition of some loose boxers! He's also been having cold showers for the last 18 months poor guy. He really has tried so hard. Went willingly when I shipped him off the London to meet Dr Ramsay etc. Swallowed endless cocktails of vitamins, antibiotics, tamoxifen... I think it's very deflating for him that nothing has made an ounce of difference :(

Fuzzy - sorry to hear your egg collection was so painful. Excuse me for another potentially ignorant question, but is there potential to freeze any for a future FET or can they not be used after being tested? Or is freezing the good ones for the future the whole point?! Hope you get a positive phone call today.

closephine you're right, it does only take one. If his morphology fluctuates even a little they'll probably be able to use his swimmers for ICSI. Poor guy. I can imagine that it's dented his sense of masculinity terribly. He sounds like a keeper - not many blokes would try so hard and put themselves through all that. Mine thought he was a saint for quitting smoking!

We're having PGS (assuming we have any that make it to 5 day blast to test) so any good ones will be frozen. The plan we've bought covers as many FETs as we need before another fresh cycle. If all that is a bust, we go to donor eggs ASAP.

I'm not too bad today. I won't be wearing tight jeans any time soon, but I can stand upright & walk & stuff

Well, this sucks balls Of my pathetic 6, 3 eggs were immature, and 1 didn't fertilise. So we have 2 little one-day-olds hanging in there. They'll call tomorrow to tell me if either are worth trying to grow for PGS.

I know it only takes one, but she said they like to have 4+ for a reasonable chance of success. I suppose that makes sense, with a 70-80% chance of failure for each embryo.

She gave me the option of day 3 PGS, but they would still prefer day 5. Day 3 seems like a waste of time to me. Surely waiting til day 5 will tell you if any are really worth testing...? You could go through all the expense at day 3, only to have your answer anyway if they don't make it to blast....? Am I missing something?

Oh fuzzy. I'm sorry your disappointed. I'm not going to give you platitudes about it only taking one but I'll keep everything crossed xx

Oh I'm sorry to read this Fuzzy :( if you go for day 3 PGS do they freeze them/put back as day 3 as well? In which case, are you potentially just prolonging the agony?

That's what I think closephine. If it's not going to make it to day 5 anyway, why bother? I'd rather have a good one with the best chance of success, or none at all. The embryologist agreed with me and said that I shared her view. Apparently some people are impatient and insist on a 3-day PGS in case the embies don't make it to day 5, but that just seems like throwing money away to me. That's why I'm wondering what I'm missing...??? Why do that?!

They put them back in as a FET in a future cycle, so a few days makes no difference in terms of the wait now, IYSWIM

It seems to me that it would make sense to wait and hope they get to day 5. When will you next get an update? Tomorrow?

I've just started spotting at 11dpo so looks like I'm out this month. I've been having weird spotting for the last few months, first month it was from 2.5dpo, last month 10dpo and this month 11 so I guess at least I've made it a bit further :(

Fuzzy I'm sorry that you're in this position. For what it's worth I think you're doing the right thing going to day 5. Slightly difference circumstances but in my first cycle we were all set to do a day 3 transfer as 2 out of 5 embryos were doing better than the others, but on the day a third embryo caught up and they suggested a day 5 transfer. But on day, we had no blastocysts, all were delayed in development. We transferred the best 2 anyway (ranked third and fifth on day 3!) and DH was furious that we'd been talked out of a day 3 transfer. Overall though we learnt more this way and it helped next time. Good luck whatever you decide xx

closephine sounds like your LP is getting better. That must be a good thing

Yes, I agree with you both about the day 5 PGS. Bear in mind we're talking over £2k for the tests! Why blow all that on day 3, only to find that they don't make it to blast anyway? All for the sake of being patient for a couple of days....?! I guess some people have got more money than brains.

Oh, yes, we get daily updates. Not expecting there to be any good news now though. I'm already psyching myself up for round 2!

Closephine Your DH sounds like a wonderful man and has been so dedicated and committed to this process, I’m so very sorry for these latest results, can only imagine how gutted he must be. once you’re into the realm of IVF then ICSI and IMSI overcome the male factor - and in fact patients with male factor have excellent prognosis for IVF success, because there’s a mechanical reason why you haven’t got pregnant naturally (same with women with blocked tubes) - so ‘fuck yeah science’ etc. I can’t remember - do Serum do IMSI as well as ICSI? IMSI is particularly helpful if morphology is poor, as the super duper magnification can try and find a swimmer that isn’t just the prettiest, but ones that are likely to be genetically strongest. know Serum are absolutely brilliant for male factor, so between Mr Ramsay and Penny, it sounds like you have and will be in the very best hands

Fuzzy I’m so sorry your news today was disappointing, big hugs to you and DH. I am in violent agreement that biopsying at day 3 is a complete waste of time and money. PGS is just a selection tool - that’s it. As you say, waiting to see what makes it to day 5 is a selection tool in itself - not all embryos that make it to blast will be chromosomally normal, but anything that doesn’t make it to blast was almost certainly abnormal. In our first cycle we had 6 eggs, 4 fertilised, but they all arrested after day 3. However gutting this was, if we had transferred at day 3, it would always have been BFN or mc, so the outcome wouldn’t have been any different whether we had transferred at day 3 or not. And for PGS it would have been bonkers to biopsy at day 3 - when the fact they arrested told us they were all abnormal to begin with. Day 5/6 biopsy also enables them to test several cells, vs one cell from a day 3-er

Although the quantities were very different, our May cycle shows why day 5 biopsy made more sense. At day 3 we had 19 good quality embryos - the cost of testing all of these would have been ridiculous. By day 5/6, 19 had reduced to 9 embryos - so testing at day 3 would have been madness, as leaving them in the dish was a very valuable selection tool in and of itself.

If you got a single blast, would you still do PGS? Or would you hold back the biopsy and do another banking round, in order to get more embryos for testing (and batch together biopsies from both cycles for PGS testing in one go)?

Keeping everything crossed for the day 2 update and hope you’re not feeling too uncomfortable

Wise words banana. The situation you were in with your 3-day losses is exactly why it's nonsense to test before 5 days. Especially as the biggest drop off is between 3-5 days anyway. This time we'll get a refund on the PGS which will help pay for the meds next cycle! We don't have money to burn!

Well, no-one will be more amazed than me if we have anything to test! But if we do, we will test & do FET before starting the next fresh cycle. That's one of the clauses of the multi cycle plan.

I'll keep you posted. They'll tell me in the morning if either have survived & what kind of poxy grade they are I suggested earlier that DH trade me in for a younger model full of plump nubile little eggs. He told me to shut up.

Any news yet Fuzzy?

Banana - thank you. We have a telephone consultation booked with Penny for a couple of weeks time. Looking forward to speaking to her as I've heard great things. I'm pretty sure Serum do IMSI but will confirm that when I speak to her. Our clinic here is very general, one approach fits all type of place so I'll be glad to finally get an expert opinion. I can't shake the feeling that I'm going to have duff eggs or some other problem in addition to DH's!

Hi all! Well, this morning's update was a surprise! The twins made it to day 2 and have both been graded at 1-2 (1 being perfect & 2 being good). The embryologist said she was very pleased with them, and said they'd rather see 2 x grade 1's or 2's than 20 x grade 3's or 4's. She said that quantity very often leads to poor quality.

So, not out of the game yet! I'm still so pessimistic about our chances that I'm already planning for round 2, but it's nice to have a flicker of hope, even if it's just for another 24 hours!

Hi Fuzzy - pleased to hear it was good news! Fingers crossed for more today for you.

Hey fuzzy thinking of you. I have also heard quality and quantity don't always link. I had 14 eggs and only 1 viable embryo by day 5. I found waiting so tense hope you're keeping busy (in the loosest sense of the phrase - box sets and biscuits counts) keep us posted x
Oh Closephine your dh sounds fab and to echo banana male factor makes ivf success more likely so you have hope even though it feels so elusive.
AFM start down regging wed. Quite excited though trying to keep emotions in check as if that ever works ...!

Hi all!

So, today's update. One embryo doing ok, now grade 2, 6 cells at day 3 with mild fragmentation, so at the slow end of the 6-10 cell normal range. The other one has decided to race ahead and start compacting already. The embryologist said this typically happens at day 4, but it's not normally a sign of abnormality - just a sign of an embryo that's decided it's in a rush. She's still quite happy with both.

Come on Tweedle-dum & Tweedle-dee!

Thanks Sara. I was pretty fed up after collection day with my measly crop, but I've realised now that we've ended up in the same place now as a lot of people with bumper crops. Goes to show that it really is one day at a time. Good luck with your down regs. I did a short protocol so avoided them - I've heard they can be a bit of an emotional rollercoaster Keep us posted x

Hope you're still in the game fuzzy xx

Hiya. Not such good news today. The 6 cell has started to compact but should have formed 2 different types of cells by now, but only has one. She thinks it's chances are very low. The one that was compacting yesterday has slowed up and isn't behaving as expected. She thinks that one has more chance than the other, but she was already giving me the spiel about understanding that embryos that don't make it at this stage can't ever have made a healthy baby, and there's no point in doing PGS with embryos that won't survive being frozen. Hey ho. On to round 2 asap!