Another selfish bastard kills himself - and his two dcs as well, to spite his wife

[Moomin]

How utterly utterly heartrending.

im not even going to read all of these posts but i will put my own veiw across, rightly or wrongly, i feel that as a child from a divorsed family, i have sympathy for all involved. including the father, when my parents seperated my mother used me and my sis a pawns in the divorsed case, made up lie after lie against my dad and his family, and in the early '90s when this happened my dad never had a chance. he lost his kids, his house his job and sank into a deep depression, now depression can effect people in many differant ways, my father luckly decided to just let it be as he didnt have the strength to fight her and left it until me and my sister where old enough to start asking q's, which we did and we both found out the truth. but unfortunatly for this family the father was thinking in a very unrational way it which it led to this very horrifing outcome (to which im not exusing what so ever). i think its very unfair to all concerned in this be judged without knowing all the facts, especially the children. divorses are very messy affairs, but i really think that fathers are pushed into this irrationality by the incompitance of courts and caffcas (who i wouldnt really be surprised if they had a part in this mans down fall) anyway this is my own personal veiws from my own experiences. and my heart goes out to all the friends and family of the babies and thier fathers. xxx

Oh gosh. I think I might have met him briefly a few years ago. If it's the same fella. A security guard at a big event I was at. He gave me an umbrella from lost property, and then struck up a converstaion with me and I found it quite difficult to extricate myself. He seemed desperate to talk about how great he'd been at Karate, and gave me a copy of his Karate magazine with a picture of him on the front. I remember thinking he seemed sad and rather needy to want to talk to a stranger that way. I wonder if my DH remembers this, I must ask him.

That just makes me feel so odd. This is such a sickening, unimaginable thing to have happened.

Sorry to hear your story, Lexilex.

I think you can probably assume that there was something about your own father that made him act differently to this chap. Certin events can of course trigger awful reactions in people who are already perhaps on a spiral of tragic behaviour, but there are others like your father, who manage still to retain a sense of proportion and not damage those he loved.

i totally agree with what you are saying herbet but i have spoken to my dad alot since this happened and he is very passionate about the injustices of fathers and he can completly see why this father chose this outcome, i will say again i am in no way condoning what this man did to his children whatso ever butpeople need to look at the bigger picture, if me and partner split he will still se his kids everyday because no matter what happens to us as a couple its not the childrens burrden and they should never lose there mother or father, no matter how much we hate each other they are both of our kids and alot of people forget that. x i really hope this all makes sense and i dont sound like a cold harted b**h. x

sorry didnt read properly, just woke up, that was ment for flllight. x

I'm sorry to hear about your dad lexilex but you are assuming this man was a loving and caring father who was denied access to his children by a bitter mother. From all the newspaper reports, this is not what this case is about. He sent hoax bombs to his ex-wife and her son and then murdered his children. He left their mother a note saying that he'd left her a present. That isn't the behaviour of a man who's suddenly lost it and had a moment of grief and madness - it's the behaviour of a vindictive person who wants to cause maximum pain.

No, Lex you certainly don't sound cold hearted at all. I just think there's a big difference between the kind of man who is massively upset, destroyed even, by a situation like that, and one who is capable of taking his children's lives

There is no suggestion that this man was ever denied access to his children.

That's righ 3littlefrogs. Why do (some) people assume that he must have been denied access to his children?

Sadly I suspect it's because people think his XW must be to blame in some way, which is dreadful.

Very scary! When i started dating, met loads of men who were quite flatering and seemed to be possesive and would get quite angry at the smallest things.
One boyfriend used to tell me to dress in short skirts...the bastard! I'm a girl who loves trousers.
Anyway, the lesson is, don't marry or live with any man who tells you what to do and gets irritated with little things and is mean.
They are dangerous and alarm bells should be ringing!

It's one of those horribly repetitious news stories isn't it...

"the bodies of two children have been found in a car in a remote beauty spot. Police are not looking for anyone else in connection with the deaths..."

You just know what's coming. And they say hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.

These stories are so awful and it terrifies me that so many violent, controlling men are allowed access to their children. If I was a mother with an ex like that I think I would do a runner rather than let him have them. I know it is tragic that some lovely and harmless men are denied access. But there is such a thing as supervised access and it should be the norm if there is any doubt at all about the man.

The lessons I think are a lot to do with how we raise both boys and girls. So many girls have so little self-worth and are brought up to value idealised romance and marriage so far above their own happiness and self-respect that they do put up with men like this and have children with them, choosing to ignore sign after sign of disrespect and abuse. And what about the men - where the hell are they coming from? We're bringing up a lot of men who can't handle rejection or criticism, can't take responsibility for themselves, and have zero respect for women.

Probably a majority of the men I read about on MN are lovely partners and fathers. But a BIG minority of them are really very worryingly immature, abusive, selfish and controlling. It really shocks me.

agree wholeheartedly with snowleopard. Every word.

A tabloid paper today coined the phrase "Babyman" That these men are like bit spoilt toddlers who destroy things if they get annoyed by them or they don't want someone else to have it.
Avoid the "Babymen" at all costs.

i dont give a crap if he was depressed or whatever pathetic excuses people want to come up with.i will never understand things like this.fine,if a pathetic selfish coward wants to kill himself then good,im sure the world would be a better place without them-but why do the sick f**ks kill their innocent children as well?

I believe there is always a good reason why a Mother would not want to grant access to a father. This is my personal opinion....

I think it is because these men are "babymen". They have very little concept of other people's feelings, rights and experiences - such as their children's. In that situation the man is only thinking of himself, his revenge, hurting his wife and getting his own back. These men aren't used to putting themselves in other people's shoes and thinking "is it really fair on my kids to take their lives away?" They are entirely self-centred.

ATM we have a friend of DP's staying with us after a break-up (no kids involved). Now he is an easy-going and nice guy and not abusive. He is in all respects pretty normal. BUT he has no concept whatsoever of other people's feelings, pulling his weight around the house, respecting our wishes re things like keeping out of my way when I'm working (I work at home). He obsesses about what people think of him and whether he has enough friends, but he doesn't make the connection with taking responsibility for his own life and being an adult. He is a babyman. Someone brought him up that way, taught him to sit on his arse and ignore other people's feelings and think the world revolves around him. And I have known many men like that. Combine that with a temper or a controlling nature and it's extraordinarily dangerous.

that last comment isnt true, there is alot of father outthere who cant afford to fight to see there kids who are caring loving fathers, there alot of mothers out there that are spitful and vindictive themselves. they will do anyhting to stop there ex from seeing the kids. family law is never black and white, so you can not pass jugdement on one family or situation,

You can certainly pass judgment on any parent who chooses to take their children with them.

Sadly most of the cases I read about have been fathers. Some of the possible reasons why discussed in this thread are very interesting and important so that in future possible risk situations the family courts can take the parent's psychology/behaviour (narcissitic/violent/controlling tendancies and threats) into account when deciding when and on what terms to allow access. Rather than the blanket "all access is good for children" put forward by Father 4 Justice.

The reason these men don't just commit suicide themselves seems pretty clear to me-revenge. They know they won't be missed too much whereas the children will be hugely and it will destroy the other parent's life forever.

There was another particularly sadistic car gassing case in which the father actually phoned his ex during the gassing so that the children could say goodbye to their mother (4 boys I think).

Dunblane (although not his own children), another clear and hideous case of revenge and wanting to make maximum impact.

I hate the whole F4J carry-on as much as anyone else.

Sadly mothers do kill their children too however, albeit for what seem to be different motives and in different circumstances. There was a very recent case in South London where the mother stabbed both her children.

jellybeans posted this article earlier on in the thread which I thought was worth reposting given the length of this now. It's a really interesting article about the different reasons men and women murder their children.

crushwitheyeliner - I'm sorry, but I really do have to take issue with that. Sometimes (and by all means not all cases, but sometimes) a father is denied access to his children with no good reason. I know this because it happened to my dh. again and again, Usually when his ex wanted him to agree to something. She just withheld access untilhe caved in. I cannot believe that you would make a statement like "I believe there is always a good reason why a Mother would not want to grant access to a father".

What a generalisation.

Silverfrog I agree. I know some mothers who block access and treat their ex appallingly, simply out of spite. They use the children as pawns, which is emotional abuse. Not saying everyone is like this, but equally it's not true to say that a mother always has a good reason to prevent access.
Snowleopard - really thoughtful intelligent posts. I agree that there are huge issue here about how boys and girls (men and women) view themselves, and their place in society. Yes, there is a problem with a minority of men who lack empathy,don't understand others's feelings and who don't take responsibility for themselves as adults. And a minority of women who lack self respect and think that bagging a man, any man, and having children with him,is something to aspire to. They ignore the early, low level signs of disrespect, they allow themselves and their children to be treated like this because in some way it's the easier option to building an independent life without needing a man to rely on in the first place.
I think this is why it is such a complex issue. It's far too simple to polarise it and say that either men or women are to blame. I think both sexes need to take responsibility for how they view themselves and eachother.

findtheriver-i am actually ouraged by your comment 'They ignore the early, low level signs of disrespect, they allow themselves and their children to be treated like this because in some way it's the easier option to building an independent life without needing a man to rely on in the first place. '

saying women who are in abusive relationships allow themselves to be treated like that is as bad as saying they deserve what they get.and that is a fucking nasty attitude to have.

I agree Moomin and to think the sick bastard left her a msg!! I cant think what might have been going thru them poor kiddies minds whilst he was doing that. It is absolutely heartbreaking