Another selfish bastard kills himself - and his two dcs as well, to spite his wife

[Moomin]

How utterly utterly heartrending.

"there alot of mothers out there that are spitful and vindictive themselves. they will do anyhting to stop there ex from seeing the kids"

Not quite anything. They don't plan their murder and then carry it out just to punish their ex h's.

Mothers who kill their children, generally don't do so in order to punish their ex.

Diva - I don't agree. I think a mother who tolerates abuse of herself and her children has to accept that she is doing that. She may not instigate the abuse, but she may accept it. There are some women who do enter into crap relationships with useless men, and then choose to have children with them, because in some way it is an easier option than thinking, 'right, I dont need a man, I can be an independent adult without one'. I'm not talking about a situation where a man may have been decent, respectful and then changed, I'm talking about men who are useless feckers to begin with.
I believe that women are equal to men, and part of that means believing that women have responsibility for their own lives.

LittleBella - there are many many cases of mothers who kill their children for all sorts of reasons. And who neglect them, abuse them, or tolerate abuse of them.

Divastrop I don't agree. It is not true that any woman deserves abuse. However, it is true that many women repeatedly accept low-level abusive behaviour from men, which then escalates.

How many times have women posted on here about abusive behaviour asking "is this abuse?" and "should I leave?" then when they are told yes it definitely is and they should leave, they say well no, I'll give him another chance. It is very common. And there is that famous statistic that women on average endure 35 violent attacks before reporting the violence. Women do accept abuse on a massive scale - they do. That doesn't make it their fault - accepting it and deserving it are two entirely different things. The question is why do they accept it - and very often it is because of low self-esteem; very often they grew up with an abusive or distant father and feel drawn to abusive men; also in general girls aren't taught to value themselves and their feelings much but they are taught to value "romance" and marriage - so they try to brush aside the fact that they are being abused for fear of being single or losing a man they feel they "love". That isn't their fault, but it is a problem, it is a fact.

Good post snowleopard. I think this issue is serious enough to be worthy of intelligent debate.
When i see posts such as diva's saying things like 'that's a fucking nasty attitude to have', simply because someone expresses a different viewpoint, kind of sums up part of the problem doesnt it?? Too much Daily Mail type ranting and not enough intelligence and respect.

I'm aware of that findtheriver. They do not generally do it simply to punish their ex partners though. The only notable exception I can think of, is Medea.

LittleBella:

'The NSPCC says..

"Killings of children by a natural parent are committed in roughly equal proportions by mothers (47%) and fathers (53%)"

Brookman and Maguire (2003) Reducing homicide: a review of the possibilities '

Whether a mother murders her children to get revenge on her partner, or murders them for other reasons, the outcome is the same for the child.
There have been many notable cases in the media in recent years - woman running off a platform in front of a train with her toddlers in a pushchair, woman jumping off a bridge with her child, woman in Wales (I think) who allowed her boyfriend to batter her child,plus other cases that didnt end in death but were extremely distressing eg recent case about a mother leaving her toddler son alone locked in a kitchen while she went out all weekend.
It happens.

findtheriver - I agree that it's worth discussing why and how abuse happens. But making sweeping statements like 'women ignore the early, low level signs of disrespect, they allow themselves and their children to be treated like this because in some way it's the easier option to building an independent life without needing a man to rely on in the first place.' Yes you said a minority of women but can you understand how that might have come across to a women who had been abused by her partner? Because it read to me like you were holding her responsible.

I'm at a loss as to why you've posted up those statistics again (they've been posted several times before) on this thread. Do you also think men are to blame if they are abused by their partner? Are they also deserving of contempt?

I'm sorry if that's not what you were trying to say but that's how your posts come across.

I posted a link to an article about the different reasons men and women kill their children. I'd be interested to hear your opinion of it

You appear to be deliberately ignoring my point.

Deliberately planning and carrying out the murder of a child in cold blood as an act of revenge, is not, on the whole, something women do.

Of course the outcome is the same, but the motive of the killer determines our response to him/ her, no? Whether they murder because they are deranged or ill, or wicked, determines whether we respond with compassion or disgust.

spicemonster - interestingly the bit you don't quote is that I said a minority of women.

Dreadful as all those cases are, it does not take away the fact that this selfish man committed an unbelievably cruel crime.

And that his ex wife is not in any way to blame for it.

Some people do find it comforting to blame the victim, however. It's a way of saying 'it will can never happen to me, because they must have done something to cause this'.

Make no mistake, his ex wife is also a victim too. Perhaps that was his intention.

re the "women ignore the early, low level signs of disrespect, they allow themselves and their children to be treated like this because in some way it's the easier option to building an independent life without needing a man to rely on in the first place" quote, I think the first step to ensuring that a little girl grows up to be a strong, confident woman who doesn't accept early low level signs of disrespect, is to ensure that she is not exposed to a man who treats her mother with that disrespect when she is growing up, thus grooming her to be a future victim herself. It's fairly well known that a high proportion of both abusers and abuse victims, grew up in abusive households.

I didn't pretend you didn't say it - I deliberately excluded it and referenced it after. I was trying to show you how your post would come across to a victim of abuse. Care to answer any of my other points?

LittleBella - in many cases it can't be known what the motives of the person were. And motives are rarely straightforward anyway. Life is far more complex (unless you read the Daily Mail and try to make it black and white).
And spicemonster.. YOU are the one using words like 'contempt'. I didnt say women who accept abuse are worthy of contempt, I said that women do accept it. Which is a fact. (As evidenced on MN, as someone pointed out earlier- look at some of the relationships threads).
If you want to debate this intelligently, read what is there. Don't put your own slant on it. I am not saying that women (or men - as men are victim of abuse in relationships too) deserve it. that is an abhorrent view. I am saying that some of them accept it, and normalise it. That is a fact.

Um, in this case I don't think there's an awful lot of doubt about the motive.

Spicemonster, I read that article.

The last paragraph just about broke my heart and I imagine many people who read it would feel the same.

The 6th paragraph as particular struck a chord with me and I think explains why so many people have had such a visceral reaction to this case.

A very difficult and disturbing read all in all.

Maybe not in this case Littlebella. But to be honest I don't know the whole background, what has gone on between those two parents who preumably cared enough about eachother to choose to have two children together.

Yes, some of them do. And I agree we need to look at that. But a little more sensitivity wouldn't go amiss. This is a board which is frequented by many survivors of abusive relationships as you're obviously aware. And I'm afraid you do come across as rather contemptuous. You might not be, but I can only go on the words I read here.

Incidentally I've never been in an abusive relationship so I'm not taking this personally.

Something about the sensational media coverage about these events makes me very uncomfortable.

It has been proven for example, that suicides happen in 'clusters' and it just seems that the more coverage of these stories in such a sensational way does not help someone in the throes of divorce and separation - maybe it offers another path?

I can't help thinking I had never heard of these events until a few years ago, and now it is every other week.

I have re read my posts and I genuinely don't think they are insensitive. In fact if anything, I have a right to be offended by the likes of diva who described my view as a 'fucking nasty attitude' - but actually I reserve contempt for people like that who think it's ok to abuse other people verbally. So it doesnt bother me - I just can't be doing with it.
Yes, there will be some women and men who have been in abusive relationships who read this thread. Some will have been the abusers, some the abused. And I would imagine in some relationships there isnt a clear cut distinction. I work with a woman who was physically abused by her ex; and she is currently undergoing therapy to deal with what she now resognises as her own abusive behaviour - apparently she used to be emotionally manipulative and use their children to verbally abuse her partner. As I say, life is complex. People make choices; some of them make bad choices,and part of being an adult is recognising that you have to take responsibility for your own life.

Sadly I think it's just reported more often GPAC and therefore we are more aware of it.

I agree the coverage is horrible. It doesn't need to be sensationalised in that horrible garish tabloid way.

See it's interesting isn't it.

Imagine a situation where a woman disagrees with her husband, explains why in a reasonable manner, and husband turns around and says she has a 'fucking nasty attitude'. Most people would probably describe that as abusive behaviour.
Yet if a woman says that to another woman on MN... it's OK??

Any woman who has two abusive relationships only has herself to blame!

Imagine a situation where someone who hasn't been abused makes someone who has feel like she deserved it. Personally I would apologise even if I didn't mean offence, rather than taking umbrage.

That's why threads like this turn to shit IMO. There's no point in debating with you - it's just arguing.