Another selfish bastard kills himself - and his two dcs as well, to spite his wife

[Moomin]

How utterly utterly heartrending.

the ability to form and sustain relationships is one of the fundamental markers of mental health.

NAB has apologised and gone, which isn't a great result i don't think.

janos, a parent's instinct is supposed to be to protect, but plenty of children are abused and neglected so that parents exist without that instinct is not news.

NAB has apologised and gone, which isn't a great result i don't think.

janos, a parent's instinct is supposed to be to protect, but plenty of children are abused and neglected so that parents exist without that instinct is not news.

I think Edam has made the point far more eloquently than me, especially regarding mental illness.

I am ranting a bit, sorry. My son is the same age as the wee boy who died and that has affected me a bit I think.

Horrible, distressing case. No wonder people have such a strong reaction to it.

Yes, but people who kill are not all 'mentally ill'. That's really an insult to people who do suffer mental health problems. Plenty of sane people kill. They kill from hate, revenge, jealousy, desire for money, all sorts of reasons.
It seems pretty clear he hated his ex wife and decided the worst thing he could do to her was to kill her children. That's actually perfectly sane, because it IS the worst thing he could do to hurt her. The children's lives were clearly far less important to him than having revenge on their mother. The evil bastard.

"janos, a parent's instinct is supposed to be to protect, but plenty of children are abused and neglected so that parents exist without that instinct is not news."

Yes, that's very true Aitch. Good point.

so can't mentally ill people be regarded as cuplable? i think that's the interesting question, tbh.

Who says he had any kind of mental illness? Is this confirmed or ignorant speculation?

This all seems to be very heated - and it obviously a highly emotive topic. I think it's not such a simple question of who's good / bad /evil and who's to blame....You must be in the most incredible low place to ever think that to do something like this is the only solution to your problems and if you've not been there yourself it's impossible to judge others for their actions. It is incredibly sad and I really feel for the poor mother - she must be suffering beyond imagination - and people pointing fingers can only make that worse.

What a vicious little piece of shit that man was. So blinded by hatred for his ex-wife that he killed his own children in cold blood. What a piece of shit, really. Mad, my arse. Evil, weak and narcissistic more like. Why didn't he try to kill his ex? Because he was a twisted little turd who knew that any physical damage to her would be nothing compared to making her carry on living after her kids were murdered.

I think it is terribly unjust to paint all evil-doing as the results of mental illness. It does a terrible disservice to people who are actually dealing with real mental illness.

You can argue in 1960s manner about what is reality, and whether mental illness is a justified response to a sick society etc. etc. etc but to excuse all wrong-doing with 'he or she is mentally ill' is just bizarre.

it's all ignorant speculation, rhubarb. the police have released very few facts but here on MN that's no barrier to outrage from all quarters.

why is it an excuse? isn't it just as horrific and tragic?

Of course it's easy to say who is to blame! The bloke who took his two little children and murdered them to punish his wife, that's who. Nobody else.
She allowed him regular contact with them too. I bet she will never, ever forgive herself for that.

I think that perhaps a different thread should be started to discuss mental illness, because on this thread it leads people to presume that the man in question was mentally ill, yet nowhere is evidence offered to support this. As the sister of someone who has tried to kill himself as a result of mental illness, I find that quite offensive.

Josephnia, I suspect he probably wasn't seeking a solution to his problems, I suspect he just wanted to hurt his ex-wife and saw his own children as the tools he could use.

I'm not sure whether that post is aimed at me, edam? My brother has lived with a serious mental illness for 15 years now, I understand the issues all too well.

It's not all ignorant speculation at all.
He killed them. That's a fact.
She was allowing access. That's a fact.
He sent her a mock bomb and a terrifying message about something that would 'be in the papers'. That's a fact.

Rhubs, agree - I was trying to argue that the 'mental illness' idea is false but am probably just feeding the idea that it is somehow relevant.

edam think your last post is right he wanted to hurt his wife and by doing that he did what he did

MsD, the ignorant speculation is the stuff referring to his mental health. Not what he did.

He hurt the two children because they couldn't fight back. He hit his wife and stepson because they too, were weaker than him. He's a bully no doubt. But probably mentally all functional, just consumed by anger and hatred.

Yes, that is ridiculous speculation in my opinion. Not a shred of evidence for it at all.
Plenty of evidence of hate and desire for revenge though.

I wasn't having a go, policy, merely explaining why I disagree.

And what a surprise to see that he was involved in that hate-filled Fathers For Justice gang. No doubt they fed his idea that he was a victim who was entitled to exact revenge.

The man I alluded to earlier in the thread was not mentally ill. He was evil. You could feel it when he walked into a room.

I agree that passing this terrible crime off as the action of a mentally ill person is not at all helpful.

The courts may as well argue that all murderers are mentally unwell, if that's the case.