Death of Emma Pattison and daughter

[MajesticWhine]

Are we allowed to talk about this now?
Last thread was deleted. But surprise surprise - now confirmed as a murder suicide

Epsom College deaths believed to be murder-suicide https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-surrey-64544884

Why do men do this?

Pressure on men to be the provider could have been an issue in the past i suppose. I know of someone who killed himself because he felt a failure when his wife had to start work to balance the books. But it feels like such an old mindset to have. The way things are with houseprice growth compared to wage growth I think most households need both adults to be earning. Its been that way for a while hasnt it?
Whatever the reason I wish did happen so often.

Regardless of the triggers NOBODY in their right mind chooses to murder their wife and small child. There is nothing to be gained by adding hate for this wretched person. A desperate waste and so sad.

My niece is at the school. The children are absolutely heartbroken and traumatised.

Regardless of the triggers NOBODY in their right mind chooses to murder their wife and small child.

Yes they do. History proves otherwise. Plenty of people who aren't mentally ill kill others. I don't know why people are so convinced that you have to be mentally ill in order to do so, not to mention that you can be mentally ill and still know what you're doing. It isn't as black and white as mental illness = lacks capacity.

My friend was stabbed to death, with numerous stab wounds, by her abusive partner and left for her young daughter to find when she returned from school. He had no history of mental illness. He did have a history of being an abusive angry twat though.

A family friend's daughter was raped and strangled by another abusive, egotistic and angry man who would be known as an incel if it happened now. No history of mental illness. Just a history of being an angry misogynistic piece of shit.

The ‘not in his right mind’ theory… Violent, abusive men don’t suddenly act from nowhere, they begin with smaller things and it builds up. At what point do they get excused for being ‘not in their right mind’? The first slap or small act of control? The first time they do visible harm? Or are they culpable until they kill because they must have not been in their right mind to do that?
No excuses for violent men.

How/why does this happen? I mean why do so many men turn out like this? It's not all men, most of our sons / husbands /friends are as outraged as we are, but it is far too many. What makes them like that?

This is so very sad; but none of us will ever know what was going on in his mind, or whether he was mentally ill or not. The fact that he killed himself as well his family leads to speculation about his mental state. I do not think we can draw any conclusions about not wishing to take a back seat etc. - we simply do not know.

Mentally stable men who face a situation they are not happy about - e.g. having to give up his job - do not kill their family.

There is the matter of his gun licence of course - I hope this will be properly investigated. In my view too many licences are issued too easily.

It is about power and control.

I wish it was not described as an isolated incident or tragic case as that seems to minimise the horrifying nature of this crime, which is basically family annihilation.

That poor woman (and child) who were likely to be trapped in a hellish domestic situation with zero practical help/support available. And having to maintain professionalism at work and still be inspirational. He obviously couldn’t handle being in her shadow. What a cowardly, vile excuse for a man.

What a way to have your innocence about the world taken away. Terrifying and terrible. RIP.

I've had to have conversations with my DD that I never expected to have.

It is domestic abuse/violence, usually brought about by a need for power and control, possibly exacerbated by the threat of the partner asking for a divorce or preparing to leave. There is likely to be a history of ongoing abuse.

Relating it to poor mental health is not fair on the thousands of people with mental health conditions who don’t do this and smacks of making excuses.

‘This is so very sad; but none of us will ever know what was going on in his mind, or whether he was mentally ill or not.‘

I disagree. There’s often no great mystery to it. Women who are the victims of intimate partner violence all too often see it coming and those who commit it generally have a history. There’s a very good chance that when more information comes out it will all be perfectly clear.
This idea that male violence is oh so unfathomable, unpredictable and consequently unpreventable is dangerous bollocks.
Read Lundy Bancroft ‘Why does he do that?’

I was thinking this same question earlier. We had murder/suicide incident in our town exactly 2 years ago, eerily to the very day, and it feels less than "rare".

Although it is American, I found this interesting, as the family had some significant changes with their change of circumstances - "These occur when there
are radical and significant changes in the person’s social and economic environment."

https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/nij/230412.pdf

I agree @HoldingTheDoor and all the other comments that say the same.

Mental health needs to stop being used as an excuse to excuse and justify men's behaviour.

It absolves humans like this man of responsibility for their actions. It really does.

Some things may be unfathomable to us, but doesn't mean that "mental health" is the default.

Some people are truly evil. Evilness isn't meant to be understood.

I say "some people", what I really mean is "some MEN"

"Men's desire to be the provider also plays into it especially, when it involves the middle class. The number that ultimately come down to a failing business is shocking. The killer often seems to think their life is over as they wouldn't want to live a poorer lifestyle because they have failed and think the family is better off dead than poor."

My husbands father got into severe debt against the families home and business and knew he was about to lose the lot, so he killed himself and left my MIL bankrupt, homeless and with 4 kids under the age of 8 to raise by herself. I've always thought it was the most selfish thing he could do, and reading this it crossed my mind and I thought thank god he didn't kill them too. Then it occurred to me what an awful thing that is to think - what a sad world we live in.

That poor little girl, the photo being shared on the news of them as a family is just heartbreaking. She looks so sweet and happy. I just can't wrap my head around how her own father who she probably loved and trusted could have done this. I just hope beyond anything that she died instantly in her sleep and knew nothing of what was happening

BBC news are reporting this as male domestic violence and focussing on how brilliant the woman was.
I'm glad they are reporting it this way.

As everyone else has said, it was obvious to us all as soon as the news report happened what it would turn out to be. Sadly, horrifically predictable.

i doubt it's a coincidence that it comes so soon after Emma got herself a very prestigious job. The comment in the school podcast about her husband having to change jobs "which wasn't meant to happen" stood out to me too and I wonder whether that clip was deliberately chosen by the media.

when I was around 12 (40 years ago), my DM was a teacher and one of her colleagues was murdered along with her daughter by her piece of shit husband who then killed himself. At the time it seemed unimaginable and we certainly hadn't heard of family annihilation happening with the regularity that it seems to these days. Can't escape the thought that misogynistic violence is at epidemic levels and getting worse, not better.

Every woman hearing this news knew what the explanation would be, sadly. It is so awful and I am haunted by that little girl's smiling face. I hope Emma and her gorgeous daughter are given the most beautiful funeral and lie together in peace, and he is tossed into an unmarked grave, the gutless coward.

Out of interest, when a woman with severe mental heal issues kills her children and herself is she also a murderous cunt?

Yes.

Why are people saying this is because he had a failed business? I can't see anything about this? He worked for a management consultancy firm. People seem to be making shit up then basing opinions in those made up 'facts'.

Men and women do this for a variety of reasons. Severe mental health episodes are complex. They often are in a state of such delusion by the time they reach this point that they believe they are doing everyone a favour. It's not rational that's the point.

Yup. It just isn't quite as common, luckily.

@SoupDragon then you are completely clueless about mental health episodes. If someone is genuinely suffering from a condition that makes their thoughts irrational then it's not their fault. A woman suffering from severe PND or a person with schizophrenia or in a state of such distress that there is no longer rational thought believes they are doing the only thing that makes sense. Your attitude and those of others who think like you show unbelievable ignorance. The privilege of never being in or knowing anyone who has been this sick. 'I've had depression and I didn't kill anyone' is only further proof of a person's ignorance.