Death of Emma Pattison and daughter

[MajesticWhine]

Are we allowed to talk about this now?
Last thread was deleted. But surprise surprise - now confirmed as a murder suicide

Epsom College deaths believed to be murder-suicide https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-surrey-64544884

Why do men do this?

Yea that video caught my attention too.

Just seemed a very pointed thing to say.

RIP Emma and Lettie

I think part of the shock is that (a) this happened on the grounds of a school and (b) people think that successful, professional women can’t possibly be victims of domestic violence or other kinds of controlling relationships. There’s a misguided idea that a woman who has the financial means would leave the situation. Yet how many times do we see on here women who don’t want to leave, not because of finances, but because they don’t want their husband have unsupervised access to their child?

Weak men are dangerous. Failed men can turn nasty.

The husband had no MH issues. Even if he had, mentally ill people murder an awful lot less than healthy ones.

It’s the sane men who pose the threat.

@GCAcademic I agree with you but despair that media narrative does not do the nuances that you do. I also think that the vast majority of people are not that "bothered" that it happened in school vicinity as vile and horrendous attacks do happen at schools (Dunblane) but I think there is some nasty class elements here. Like you say it's a failure to understand the mechanisms of DV/DA

A lady on the news (sorry didn't catch her name) commented;
"A woman is only as safe as her male partner allows her to be."
Quite.

Powerful words.

I know a lot of women who are more successful or earn more than their male partners and, in nearly every case where I know something of the dynamics of their relationship, there is a certain amount of treading on eggshells to appease the man’s ego. Research shows that men struggle to cope either when they are they are the sole breadwinner (understandable) OR when their wife earns more than 40% of the household income. Apparently women who become higher earners than their husbands also then start to take on more of the work at home, which I can only think is a form of subconscious appeasement or reassurance that they “know their place”, perhaps even a primal instinct to keep themselves safe.

What can we do as women, or as a society to change this or make a difference?

It’s totally depressing as all of us knew deep down what had happened as soon as the news broke because the circumstances and of how it was worded.

A man in that position would also be able to abuse safeguarding protocols to keep a spouse in line

'I'll report you for abusing me/my child and then you'll lose your job, be publicly humiliated and never work again'.

That's one reason why teachers and school staff frequently won't report, as the repercussions their abuser could bring upon their head.

In addition, capitalising upon inherent misogyny (such as governors not wanting to recruit a woman with 'issues' or questioning her judgement 'She couldn't identify an abuser in her own life, how likely is she to be able to protect children/do we want somebody who has been the subject of reports/might be unstable?') can be a further weapon preventing escape. She wouldn't have been offered the role had her husband failed a check, after all, would she? Or if she had a caution for assault because she slapped him?

These bastards use every tool they have at their disposal to abuse, terrify, coerce and threaten - including ones meant to protect others.

It’s interesting that this story, being in the news, has caused so much discussion with so much opinion from, possibly, people with no real experience of domestic abuse. Think of all the families that have suffered a death due to violence which you never read about. No such discussion about them or motives etc.

This tragedy brings to mind a similar case in Ireland 6 years ago, where a teacher murdered his wife, also a teacher, and their 3 sons aged 14, 11 and 6 years old. And then committed suicide himself. Apparently this pillar of the community was about to 'suffer a fall from grace'. Adding to the tragedy because burials in Ireland happen within a matter of days, they were all buried in the same grave. So awful.

Firstly… genuinely… protect and defend the definition of ‘woman’ - an adult, human, female.

We can’t protect what we can’t define.

It’s SO important.

Not sure of her name but think it said she was head of the GDST. Agree thought they were great words.

Domestic abuse is not rare though and that is a precursor to this.

Is it deep rooted misogyny? Or resentment? Lack of respect for women? Affected by porn culture? A result of the patriarchy?

I don’t know the answer but there needs to be discussion.

The fact they just sold their house rang alarm bells for me. Why? I’ve worked at boarding schools before, everybody who was 35+ enjoyed the free/cheap school accommodation and then rented out their house or kept it for holidays. I suspect financial problems. She would have been on a good salary as head of that school, but not mega mega mega bucks.
horrible story.

Extremely sad. True that there are countless toxic, scary men out there. However, no one can truly know what has been going on in that particular household. Women do have to try and learn from these incidents. Don't put appearances or what neighbours, family or friends may say over your safety. Get out if you have an inkling that you and your children may be in danger. Often there are signs well before it gets to this type of tragic end. Heart wrenching.

I found these words really annoying actually, I heard that report.

When this story broke and there was all the lambasting about people assuming it would be the man, I googled "mothers who killed their family". I didn't find anything but there was a very long list of mothers who died with their family, at the hands of their partner. I agree not "common" but there is a lot of it.

What do you mean, you don’t agree DV is a precursor? Precursor literally means something that goes before. Which it does- you don’t find loads and loads of men who kill their families who have never been violent or abusive towards them before.
You are getting muddled up with the fact that the majority of men who commit dv don’t go on to kill their families. Indeed they don’t, but it doesn’t make dv irrelevant in understanding and preventing family annihilation.

Don’t try to blame the woman for not getting out.
The victims’ behaviour is not the problem here. Society needs to look at why men do it and what all the reasons are why getting out is not as simple as it sounds.

Been there. Speaking from experience. No blame.

BigSwingingJeremyClarkson you might not believe cases like this have anything to do with domestic violence or that it's a precursor to this case but that's what the academic literature on these cases says is the the most likely determinant or early warning sign.

Surely you can make the logical extension that someone who wreaks domestic violence (presumably you are aware of DV) on their partner or family may ultimately end up killing them? Surely you've read cases where the wife is wanting to leave or has had an affair and the husband kills her and the children to prevent his 'possessions' from leaving. Out of jealousy, possessiveness or control.

The evidence suggests other causes too - grace (thinking they are saving the family or saving their reputation as provider), so called 'honour' killings, financial or mental health crises. But the research suggests abuse or controlling behaviour is the most predominant factor. Most people who lose their job or have a mental health crisis do not harm anyone else.

What's really important is that as a society we are at looking at the root causes of domestic abuse and coercive control. How do we change how men are being raised and educated or enable early intervention that protects women and children. Because over 90 percent of DV and familicide is carried out by men and there has to be some toxic notion of masculinity which drives men to want to control or hurt women to preserve their ego.