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Original poster

Death of Emma Pattison and daughter

215 replies

MajesticWhine · 07/02/2023 11:24

Are we allowed to talk about this now?
Last thread was deleted. But surprise surprise - now confirmed as a murder suicide

Epsom College deaths believed to be murder-suicide https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-surrey-64544884

Why do men do this?

OP posts:
journeyofinsanity · 09/02/2023 06:15

@GCAcademic btw before you dig yourself further into the hole, I am mixed race.

AutumnLeavesFallingIntoPlace · 09/02/2023 06:22

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

You're saying it's an assault on men to talk about male violence.

While three women a week are murdered by men in this country.

But rather than acknowledge the actual, genuine, murderous assaults on women happening all the time, you'd rather pretend men are the victims here.

WhatTrophy · 09/02/2023 07:24

StevoA · 08/02/2023 23:32

Thank you for deleting my post. Clearly having some respect for friends and family are not required, and being a male posting on Mumsnet is clearly me trolling.
As a father I will never condone what has been done, but as someone who has experienced suicidal thoughts I find it disgusting that it is clearly being blamed as a 'male' ownership problem.
Emma was an old friend of mine, and what her husband did was not acceptable. But what I find even more unacceptable is the clear rhetoric that thinks all men are a problem.
Yes there is a male centric issue in society, but we're not all as evil as this thread is suggesting, and it would be appreciated if people could allow friends and family be allowed to grieve in peace.

This is like "all lives matter". By saying one group of people suffer disproportionately at the hands of another, no one's saying it's everyone on that group, but they are recognising that group (whether it's women or ethnic minorities) face struggles that others just don't and as you so ably demonstrate, just can't (or won't) understand.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 09/02/2023 07:27

‘what her husband did was not acceptable. But what I find even more unacceptable is the clear rhetoric that thinks all men are a problem.’

If you actually believe this you are very much part of the problem.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 09/02/2023 07:30

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 09/02/2023 07:27

‘what her husband did was not acceptable. But what I find even more unacceptable is the clear rhetoric that thinks all men are a problem.’

If you actually believe this you are very much part of the problem.

In case it’s not clear what I meant by ‘this’, I mean the belief that things people are saying here on Mumsnet are worse than a man actually killing his wife and child.
Talk about putting men’s feelings above women’s lives.

Ihaventgottimeforthis · 09/02/2023 07:33

StevoA · 08/02/2023 23:32

Thank you for deleting my post. Clearly having some respect for friends and family are not required, and being a male posting on Mumsnet is clearly me trolling.
As a father I will never condone what has been done, but as someone who has experienced suicidal thoughts I find it disgusting that it is clearly being blamed as a 'male' ownership problem.
Emma was an old friend of mine, and what her husband did was not acceptable. But what I find even more unacceptable is the clear rhetoric that thinks all men are a problem.
Yes there is a male centric issue in society, but we're not all as evil as this thread is suggesting, and it would be appreciated if people could allow friends and family be allowed to grieve in peace.

You seriously think that murdering your wife and child is more acceptable than talking about the epidemic of male violence against women? Acknowledging the harm of our patriarchal society? Flagging toxic masculinity?

GCAcademic · 09/02/2023 07:34

journeyofinsanity · 09/02/2023 06:15

@GCAcademic btw before you dig yourself further into the hole, I am mixed race.

I’m mixed race too. I guess that’s why your racism rankled.

Along with your belief that women calling out male violence are carrying out an “assault”.

BeautifulDayintheneighbourhood · 09/02/2023 07:35

Some men are bastards. The majority are decent men. I’m astonished that everyone is jumping to the conclusion there was DV. We don’t know. None of us had a clue what went on between them. He may have had depression and lost control. No doubt more details will emerge, but speculation isn’t really very helpful.

Lobelia123 · 09/02/2023 07:50

SlightlyJaded · 07/02/2023 11:29

It was so fucking inevitable. He will have done it for one of three reasons most probably

  1. He is an arrogant, entitled narc whose business was failing whilst her career was thriving and he just couldn't bare it.
  2. He was hiding something: financial ruin/affair/sexuality and it was about to be discovered
  3. He was mentally ill. Least likely.

Same old same old. Poor poor woman and sweet little girl.

We are not far from Epsom and DD has several friends there - they are all quite traumatised and completely devastated. They will recover of course, but what a completely selfish cunt.

Fourth option . . . behind the scenes the marriage was unhappy / not in a good state and she was either trying to leave him, or he suspected and feared that she would.

I live in a country where so-called family killings were very common at one time, and it always comes back to one of these four scenarios. It always comes back to deep insecurity, faltering sense of their own masculinity and prestige/place in the world, fear of losing control and fear of failure

WhatTrophy · 09/02/2023 07:53

I think the main thing I take from this is we just never know. Looking at that beautiful, happy, family photo, a family who seem to have it all....

gogohmm · 09/02/2023 07:55

@MuseThrower

Why assume that it couldn't have happened? Some women are violent to their male partners, I have personal experience in my ex's family, details would be outing but the police wouldn't believe him that at 6'1 he could be abused by his wife (obviously now ex). I have no idea in this case but don't be dismissive, behind closed doors things aren't always what they seem

MuseThrower · 09/02/2023 08:01

I’m not. I’m querying the point of reporting it, now she and her daughter are dead, before any inquests, as if it had happened.

Original poster
MajesticWhine · 09/02/2023 08:02

BeautifulDayintheneighbourhood · 09/02/2023 07:35

Some men are bastards. The majority are decent men. I’m astonished that everyone is jumping to the conclusion there was DV. We don’t know. None of us had a clue what went on between them. He may have had depression and lost control. No doubt more details will emerge, but speculation isn’t really very helpful.

I don't think people "lose control" and murder their families due to depression.
Family annihilators are very rarely known to mental health services.

OP posts:
MerryMarigold · 09/02/2023 08:22

Bouledeneige · 07/02/2023 12:44

As for hugging baby boys tight. I thought that too. But it's a societal issue - see how many children have been exposed to pornography, rape culture and sharing stolen nudes, the culture that enables Carrick to be a serving police officer for 20 years and the cult of Andrew Tate. Mums hold their children tight. Quaking.

This.

I thought I had brought my sons up right. My 17yo son is wonderful. My 14yo daughter is a feminist. My 14yo son has been completely taken in by Andrew Tate. That's the currency of cool in his school. And however much, as a parent, you try and argue against those ideas, the fact you're a parent automatically goes against you. I'm hoping he comes through the other side, but it's so upsetting currently.

WhatTrophy · 09/02/2023 08:47

Police have said the family wasn't known to them and surely he wouldn't have a gun licence with a history of DV? If it happened, it hadn't been reported.

I doubt any model husband and father suddenly snaps and kills them all though.

yodayoga1 · 09/02/2023 08:48

WhoNeedsSleepNotISaidMyBody · 07/02/2023 14:13

The interview she did in Dec made me think when she said it had been a big change for all of them (the new job) and that he got a new job 'that wasn't meant to happen' It seemed like an odd comment & worried me that there was tension around that.

I wonder if she'd called the police instead of family/friend if they'd been able to intervene in time.

So unutterably sad xx

Yes, that really stuck out massively for me too. She looked like she was quelling a lot of some negative feeling when she said that. Exasperation, tension, not sure, but definitely something was off with that.

And yes, we all knew as soon as it hit the papers. Poor, poor woman and daughter. What a selfish, contemptible scumbag he was.

IhearyouClemFandango · 09/02/2023 09:03

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 09/02/2023 07:27

‘what her husband did was not acceptable. But what I find even more unacceptable is the clear rhetoric that thinks all men are a problem.’

If you actually believe this you are very much part of the problem.

Indeed.

Mischance · 09/02/2023 09:30

Male violence, towards women and in general, is a massive problem, and a worry for mothers of sons who are trying to bring up decent young men, but are faced with the onslaught of the sort of rhetoric of violence on social media. And the influence of porn which is about the exploitation of women for men's pleasure.

We will never know what motivated this man, but we do know he was granted a gun licence. What exactly was he granted this for? Why does anyone need a gun? I live in a farming area, and many here have guns for eliminating vermin, but any one of them could use it in an evil way. I know that licences go to very dodgy people - the checks are pretty cursory - mates endorse mates on the forms. There needs to be a serious look at the system that allows this.

Mostly men committing violence towards women do not kill themselves - they have too high an opinion of themselves to think the world can do without them. So we have to wonder about the mental health of this man.

The information about a previous incident is not about victim blaming, but it does highlight an unstable relationship and reveal that there is some history here that might be relevant to the incident.

Patertater · 09/02/2023 12:10

A tragic and horrible event. I've just tried to see if there have been any updates and the latest (DM, sorry) is that Emma and George hosted a dinner party a few hours before he shot her and Lettie. There is another article (also on the DM) that he, apparently, did not work, had taken out a director's loan in 2021 and had a lot of time on his hands. I also read that in 2016, Emma was arrested after a domestic row where she hit him across the face. The charges were dropped. It's also come to light that while Emma and Lettie moved to the grounds of Epsom College, George lived in their old house until it was sold (only recently moving into the house at Epsom).

I think it was mentioned in one of the very early posts in this thread (possibly even by the OP), that there must have been a lot of resentment that he was harbouring over not being the breadwinner. Perhaps the dinner party on Saturday night made him feel very inferior at the table with all of her new colleagues and the alcohol did not help (although it was mentioned in the article that he seemed fine during the dinner party and that nothing about him, or anything during the dinner party, seemed out of place).

WhoNeedsSleepNotISaidMyBody · 09/02/2023 13:14

yodayoga1 · 09/02/2023 08:48

Yes, that really stuck out massively for me too. She looked like she was quelling a lot of some negative feeling when she said that. Exasperation, tension, not sure, but definitely something was off with that.

And yes, we all knew as soon as it hit the papers. Poor, poor woman and daughter. What a selfish, contemptible scumbag he was.

Show quote history

@yodayoga1 yes, & there was more on the radio this morning. I think if her friends keep coming forward, they may build up a better picture of the situation. However, sadly it won't help her or her daughter. HOWEVER, it may help other women to recognise the situation they're living in isn't right and get help! It's difficult when you're seen as capable, string, a leader, 'having it all', people looking up to you etc, but women need to realise it's not a sign of weakness or 'lack' to get help for domestic situations. It may save another woman's life.

obviously we don't have many facts, but the emerging picture appears to be one we've all heard too many times.

💐

BeautifulDayintheneighbourhood · 09/02/2023 13:18

I find it odd that there’s virtually no information about him or his background. Just some vague facts about his business . He was born in Jamaica but beyond that.. nothing.

MissWings · 09/02/2023 13:39

@journeyofinsanity

I am sorry but don’t start with the schitzophrenic psychosis crap. Even that diagnosis is NOT an excuse and it’s terrible ignorant as it perpetuates the myth that people with psychosis are dangerous when in most cases they are not.

My Nan had schizophrenia with many periods of psychosis (lots of hospital stays). Her psychosis centred around the fact that she utterly convinced she didn’t have a head. She also heard threatening voices. She was in no way a danger to other people and the reason for her severe mental illness was yep… you guessed it. Male sexual violence from her own father from a young age.

Please stop spouting the mental Illness crap to excuse mens violence.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 09/02/2023 14:08

Mischance, why do you say we will never know what motivated him? There is a very good chance we will. In most cases there are friends or relatives who have been confided in or observed what is going on even if the wider community has no idea there is anything up.
Male violence isn’t some mysterious and unknowable thing. It is often all too simple.

Mischance · 09/02/2023 14:42

It is not mysterious - it is just that this case is not something we have detailed information about so we cannot speculate with any confidence. Hopefully more details will become available to the authorities, and we can only hope that this might shed light on it all. No-one will ever be able to get inside his head and examine his thought processes.

I am simply saying that most men who commit DV do not kill themselves. So there must be some factor here that is different; and that an understanding of this might possibly add to our understanding of the problem and play a small part in prevention.

The killings that are followed by suicide seem to be more common in the US (related to the level of gun ownership no doubt) but it would be interesting to know if any research has been done on this phenomenon to distinguish these perpetrators from others, in terms of psychological profiling, upbringing etc. It might go some way towards prevention.

ModeWeasel · 09/02/2023 15:46

I’m astonished that everyone is jumping to the conclusion there was DV. We don’t know. None of us had a clue what went on between them. He may have had depression and lost control.

The police say this man shot and killed his wife and child. In what conceivable definition of the words would this not be domestic violence?

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