Ukraine.. Ignorance

[Iwonder08]

There are about 300 threads on MN now about Ukraine. A lot of very opinionated people who probably wouldn't be able to point Ukraine on the map and never ever had any interest in the region. There is zero knowledge of the internal violent conflicts in the country, but a lot of messages about 'hero president' or even worse threads to United Kingdom.
I hate Putin passionately as he impacted the life of some people who are dear to me. The conflict will have much worse long term impact on Russia itself rather than Ukraine and he doesn't give a shit.
I respect people's opinions as long as they are educated.
Putin is quite obviously in the wrong as he is breaking the international law and there is no excuse for that, but the overall situation is triggered by US involvement in Ukrainian internal politics as much as Russian interference. There must be consequences for Putin, but also acknowledgment of the impact of US foreign politics in the current conflict.
As usual, simple civilians on both sides will be the victims.

@VladmirsPoutine

Sky News was broadcasting a Molotov cocktail making session, and explaining the finer points of making them stick to vehicles. Can you imagine if Al Jazeera reported like this in Gaza.

cool hope you made notes, never know when such knowledge could prove useful.

I am still annoyed that the anarchists cookbook was pulled from library shelves after 7/7 it was a very interesting book.

@Cbtb

Totally get why Ukraine wanting to be closer to the west and join nato would make Russia a bit jittery. If our close neighbours decided to ally with the enemy (say Ireland decided to join Russia - clearly they won’t) id be a bit freaked as well. Would that mean that the uk would be justified to invade them - no. There are very very few acceptable reasons to invade a sovereign state and even less a democratic one. If the west and NATO are more attractive to Ukraine than Russia then Russia needs to look at it self and figure out why. Ukraine perhaps should have offered the regions wishing to separate referendums on succession- that does not justify invasion. I’m 2014 Ukraine gave up its independent nuclear deterrent- that is a clear step away from conflict. NATO did not grant membership asap. This is Putins doing.

And before I’m accused of hippocracy I would support NI becoming its own state or joining RI if a MAJORITY of the people who live there voted for that. Also believe that the people of Scotland should have the right to independence if they want and same with Catalan (I think it would be a bad idea as this states would be too small to be self supporting but insisting my view by military might would be wrong)

TLDR belief in democracy before all else. The people of a region have the right to decide who governs them even if they pick an idiot. No interference with sovereign states unless they attack first.

but how many actually have democracy?

the majority here didn't vote tory they got a minority of the vote and when you filter out voting systems that are not one party one vote you then have the problems of foreign interference in elections and propaganda campaigns to influence the vote, the CIA have a very long history in interfering in others democracy when they dont like whos been voted in or who has taken over in a revolution.

the bay of pigs and the coup in Chile are two very obvious examples of US interference amongst hundreds of others which were far less obvious.

I will hold my hands up I don’t know much about the Ukraine beyond what my couple of Ukrainian friends have told me.

But in my 45 years on earth I have seen many conflicts, and the same things happen over and over, people thinking their way is best, that everyone else should think like them, that they have some kind of moral superiority, that there is only one way to view the world correctly and they have the right to treat people anyway they want because of al this to ensure their way of thinking/life wins. People can do some awful things to other humans to ensure to try and mould the world according to their vision, to ensure their vision is as immortal as their genes.

It happens again and again at different levels, from threads on here telling people they are stupid unless X, to only certain types of X are acceptable to killing people because they don’t have a certain religion, won’t marry a certain person to they won’t accept a certain political ideology, leader.

Until humans learn that there isn’t just one vision and that everyone should be respected for their views and we have no right to impose our personal universe on others then there will be more Ukraines on a microcosmic and macrocosmic basis every day

No idea about the politics of it all but didnt Biden try pointing this out and got mocked for it?

Trump has blood on his teeny tiny little hands by the sounds of it. Why do they get away with this shit?

I will hold my hands up I don’t know much about the Ukraine beyond what my couple of Ukrainian friends have told me.

Your Ukrainian friends refer to their country as the Ukraine, do they?

You need to look at the involvement the US has. Under every rock, the US comes crawling out which ends up in a war or conflict every single bloody time. I'm not saying Russia has the right and Putin needs to be hanged but so does the US. The world would be a nicer place without these two countries hidden agendas. The US loves using little countries and that is a fact.

Op I agree with you on why Russia doesn't want Ukraine to be a part of Nato. Putin is a Russian president and has to balance the needs of his people with the safety and autonomy of his country. It is not in the interest of Russia to be surrounded by Nato countries in which the US can set up camp and make attacking his nation easier. Does it make his actions acceptable, hell no in my eyes. I can see how you could sell it to Russian patriots as a necessary evil though. People can and will ignore the fact that the uS meddle in politics everywhere. What right do they have to do that? If it was China or any other country there would be outrage.

I was thinking from the viewpoint that Ukraine doesn't want Russia marching into their country and will resist, which they are entitled to do. When did it become OK for any country to invade, and it's OK?
If Russia gets away with annexing Ukraine then where will be next? Lithuania? Latvia? Estonia? Poland ? Any of the other former territories? What then?
When do other countries say 'no, enough is enough'?
I realize that is too simplistic for some, but that is my thinking.

@daisypond

I will hold my hands up I don’t know much about the Ukraine beyond what my couple of Ukrainian friends have told me.

Your Ukrainian friends refer to their country as the Ukraine, do they?

… as I was saying in the rest of my thread.

allTheresSomebodyAtTheDoorNeil

Why are you blaming trump? this has been going on for many years before his presidential term.

For someone claiming to be superiority educated and informed, there is nothing in any of your posts to support this. You have thrown out a few soundbites but haven't explored them in any great detailed or provided any additional detail that the best majority of people already have.

I don't understand the point of your thread unless you are going to add context, theories, debate or something of substance. It's pretty much the same as the other 300 threads.

@daisypond

I will hold my hands up I don’t know much about the Ukraine beyond what my couple of Ukrainian friends have told me.

Your Ukrainian friends refer to their country as the Ukraine, do they?

But yes, actually they do, because that is how it is referred to here.

CIA meddling as they always do, tentacles everywhere.

Citation from a reputable news source?

@Iwonder08 A wise person recognises that they don't know it all. A fool thinks that they do.

80% of the wars of the C20 and C21 century have involved the US. Putin is wrong to try to take the whole of the Ukraine but the eastern part -Donbass etc is largely pro Russian and has been subject to attacks by the Ukrainian government -which will put people in prison for merely posting pro-russian tweets. The Ukrainian gov is also aligned with a neo Nazi group Azov who it allowed on mass to join the Ukrainian army. Where's all the horror at anti-Semitism now!

Am all for robust, evidence-based thinking, nuance and minimum standards of knowledge. How many of your posts do you think meet the standards of 'educated' you set for others, OP?

You say:
People in Eastern Ukraine have been oppressed for a long time

Where’s your evidence of this? Many people in Scotland feel they would like more self-government, but that does not make them oppressed.

I think everyone is aware of the interference of foreign governments in the politics of countries.

I've seen it discussed in all threads I've followed - and I follow them to learn and interact in a variety of opinions.

Russia was involved with US under trump. They've interfered in UK politics under the Tory's - specifically Johnson.
Biden has more of a stake in Ukraine.

I personally think Trump being ousted from USA and Boris being in very dodgy ground and risking bringing the whole party down in the UK will have played a part in Putins decision to push ahead with invasion.

I've heard people shit others down and say to stop bringing Brexit into it and mentioning the unpublished Russia report etc.

But it's naive to ignore all history when trying to figure out someone's motives both now and for the future.

I'm more than happy to hear any information you have to share. It's all relevant.

@ButtockUp

So, what exactly are you trying to say? That only educated people with a thorough knowledge of Eastern European politics, law and economics should be posting on MN?

Well that would be more helpful wouldn’t it?

Rather than people whipping up fear by saying that British men will be conscripted etc🙄.

@Iwonder08

US inteference- last(current) president backed by US, previous one was back by Russia. Neither is good for the country who wants to be independent. If Ukraine joined NATO then US will arrange their military bases close to Russian border which is very desirable for US and not at all desirable for Russia and will generally have a lot of influence in the country so close to Russia. Re internal conflicts- People in Eastern Ukraine have been oppressed for a long time, however I don't believe even for a second Putin is actually acting in their best interest as they try to dress it up in pro-russian media. All of these might explain the situation, but not justify it.

Ah so you're one of those people who think Ukraine should be a neutral buffer zone between the West and Russia. Its all very well to say that when its not your country that's the neutral buffer zone. Living in one of those neutral buffer zone countries I can say its not desirable - we're not neutral, we're just not allowed to join defensive pacts to keep our freedom secure, kept in line by threats from Russia.

It is not up to Russia whether or not Ukraine joins NATO, no matter how much Russia does not want them to.

www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/26/valdimir-putin-russia-ukraine-inside-his-head

This article is worth a read.

@OMG12

I will hold my hands up I don’t know much about the Ukraine beyond what my couple of Ukrainian friends have told me.

But in my 45 years on earth I have seen many conflicts, and the same things happen over and over, people thinking their way is best, that everyone else should think like them, that they have some kind of moral superiority, that there is only one way to view the world correctly and they have the right to treat people anyway they want because of al this to ensure their way of thinking/life wins. People can do some awful things to other humans to ensure to try and mould the world according to their vision, to ensure their vision is as immortal as their genes.

It happens again and again at different levels, from threads on here telling people they are stupid unless X, to only certain types of X are acceptable to killing people because they don’t have a certain religion, won’t marry a certain person to they won’t accept a certain political ideology, leader.

Until humans learn that there isn’t just one vision and that everyone should be respected for their views and we have no right to impose our personal universe on others then there will be more Ukraines on a microcosmic and macrocosmic basis every day

This

As usual the mainstream media is presenting a misleading 'goody/baddy' binary. The situation is much more complex. Putin's behaviour is despicable but there is a bigger picture here as you say. This situation has been a co-creation and dates back decades.
No doubt people who believe every word MSM tells them will label alternative perspectives as conspiracy theories or pro-Putin sympathy. It's simply the truthy.

I agree with you. It feels like we all have no critical thinking skills since social media now has already made it easy for us to pick a side.

I think it goes back further than a few decades though. Ukraine is seen as the spiritual birthplace of Russia to some dating back to the ancient Greeks.

@Nutsohazelnuts

You say: People in Eastern Ukraine have been oppressed for a long time

Where’s your evidence of this? Many people in Scotland feel they would like more self-government, but that does not make them oppressed.

I don't think the conflict in Eastern Ukraine is really comparable to the campaign for Scottish independence?

This is from Amnesty International so presumably reliable information.

"Security service officials responsible for secret detention and torture in eastern Ukraine from 2014 to 2016 continued to enjoy complete impunity"

"Both sides in the conflict in eastern Ukraine imposed travel restrictions, impacting the socioeconomic rights of local people"

www.amnesty.org/en/location/europe-and-central-asia/ukraine/report-ukraine/

“but how many actually have democracy?

the majority here didn't vote tory they got a minority of the vote and when you filter out voting systems that are not one party one vote you then have the problems of foreign interference in elections and propaganda campaigns to influence the vote, the CIA have a very long history in interfering in others democracy when they dont like whos been voted in or who has taken over in a revolution.

the bay of pigs and the coup in Chile are two very obvious examples of US interference amongst hundreds of others which were far less obvious.“

These are all straw man arguments, an attempt to say look over here instead.

The US has blood on its hands in many places around the world. This does not justify an invasion of a separate sovereign nation that isn’t even in a defence pact with the US. Sovereign nations can make treaties with whomever they want to (as long as the other country wants to as well) Would NATO prefer for Belarus to be a western leaning state and not be aligned with Russia - of course. Does that give NATO grounds to invade them - no of course not.

Democracy here could be improved. It’s pretty good tho, we have free elections. We have civil handovers of power, we can have regime change via the ballot box. We have a pretty independent judiciary who are not afraid to rule against the government. The USA voted out trump and while it looked a bit dodgy for a bit democracy did win out showing that the system works (and they voted him in as well - the system allows for an anti establishment figure to win) By no means is western liberal democracy perfect but it’s the best system on offer.