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Original poster

Ukraine.. Ignorance

132 replies

Iwonder08 · 27/02/2022 08:29

There are about 300 threads on MN now about Ukraine. A lot of very opinionated people who probably wouldn't be able to point Ukraine on the map and never ever had any interest in the region. There is zero knowledge of the internal violent conflicts in the country, but a lot of messages about 'hero president' or even worse threads to United Kingdom.
I hate Putin passionately as he impacted the life of some people who are dear to me. The conflict will have much worse long term impact on Russia itself rather than Ukraine and he doesn't give a shit.
I respect people's opinions as long as they are educated.
Putin is quite obviously in the wrong as he is breaking the international law and there is no excuse for that, but the overall situation is triggered by US involvement in Ukrainian internal politics as much as Russian interference. There must be consequences for Putin, but also acknowledgment of the impact of US foreign politics in the current conflict.
As usual, simple civilians on both sides will be the victims.

OP posts:
Zilla1 · 27/02/2022 14:13

If the notion of long term effective policy making feels alien to this government, it might be a conscious decision to have Russia feel some skin in the game of the UK economy and housing sector.

If the City were restricted to fully clean money and the transparency the UK government pays lip service to for offshore 'tax havens', what would be the effect on political donations and on financial services profits and bonuses?

Joystir59 · 27/02/2022 14:21

@Iwonder08

There are about 300 threads on MN now about Ukraine. A lot of very opinionated people who probably wouldn't be able to point Ukraine on the map and never ever had any interest in the region. There is zero knowledge of the internal violent conflicts in the country, but a lot of messages about 'hero president' or even worse threads to United Kingdom. I hate Putin passionately as he impacted the life of some people who are dear to me. The conflict will have much worse long term impact on Russia itself rather than Ukraine and he doesn't give a shit. I respect people's opinions as long as they are educated. Putin is quite obviously in the wrong as he is breaking the international law and there is no excuse for that, but the overall situation is triggered by US involvement in Ukrainian internal politics as much as Russian interference. There must be consequences for Putin, but also acknowledgment of the impact of US foreign politics in the current conflict. As usual, simple civilians on both sides will be the victims.
I've not studied Ukraine's political history but am not the least surprised to read in your post about US meddling. They are always in there somewhere aren't they?
JuergenSchwarzwald · 27/02/2022 14:23

The point is, Ukraine is a sovereign state. If the people want to join Russia or they want to divide the country, then it's their choice to make. Putin has no right to force the issue one way or the other.

Czechoslovakia divided into two countries and managed not to have a war about it. If Ukraine wanted the same, it could, without Putin's willy waving.

lessthanathirdofanacre · 27/02/2022 14:24

@EatCakeBeMerry

Can I just ask what makes you more educated about the situation than those other 300+ posters?

Your posts so far are pretty vague and don't come across as particularly eye opening or educational on the topic so I fail to see how this thread is more thought out than those you criticise. Unfortunately there are people who do not have the luxury of a good education but they have as much right to talk about current affairs as those who are.

I wouldn't look to the OP for any information if I were you. So far they have only offered some of Putin's typical talking points.
Abra1d1 · 27/02/2022 14:30

@Infinitemoon

*As usual the mainstream media is presenting a misleading 'goody/baddy' binary. The situation is much more complex. Putin's behaviour is despicable but there is a bigger picture here as you say. This situation has been a co-creation and dates back decades. No doubt people who believe every word MSM tells them will label alternative perspectives as conspiracy theories or pro-Putin sympathy. It's simply the truthy.*

I agree with you. It feels like we all have no critical thinking skills since social media now has already made it easy for us to pick a side.

I think it goes back further than a few decades though. Ukraine is seen as the spiritual birthplace of Russia to some dating back to the ancient Greeks.

Echoes of Kosovo and Serbia.
tttigress · 27/02/2022 14:32

What are these US foreign policies?

If Ukraine wants to join the EU and NATO instead of being perpetually a buffer state, should it not at least try?

tttigress · 27/02/2022 14:34

I think you may be trying to spread disinformation OP in a very superior way.

GirlInACountrySong · 27/02/2022 14:57

Op you don't come across as particularly well educated yourself

Tell us why we should listen to you? And what are you actually saying? There's nothing new or enlightening on this thread that hasn't been covered in the 300 threads before it!

Postdatedpandemic · 27/02/2022 15:01

Overall Defcon level moved to 2
Taken from Defcon Level Warning System: www.defconlevel.com/european-command-news.php#breaking-news

Notonthestairs · 27/02/2022 15:06

@LizDoingTheCanCan thanks for the Dominic Grieve article - very interesting.

ClaudineClare · 27/02/2022 15:07

I am starting to think some posters are getting a kick out of spreading fear...

heronsinflight · 27/02/2022 15:19

The idea that the Ukrainian government requires "de-nazification" is an odd one coming from a Russian government that has actively encouraged the far right both at home and in the West.

VelvetChairGirl · 27/02/2022 15:19

@tttigress

What are these US foreign policies?

If Ukraine wants to join the EU and NATO instead of being perpetually a buffer state, should it not at least try?

and if the USA want to put a few air bases in there, then what? they already had nukes at the USAF bases here before without permission.
GirlInACountrySong · 27/02/2022 15:59

Where's the OP gone?

lessthanathirdofanacre · 27/02/2022 16:01

@heronsinflight

The idea that the Ukrainian government requires "de-nazification" is an odd one coming from a Russian government that has actively encouraged the far right both at home and in the West.
Precisely. Putin has created an insane myth around the notion that Ukraine is ruled by Nazis intent on genocide against the Russian people. Whereas in truth he is the authoritarian (bordering on fascist) leader who hasn't allowed free elections in years, and Zelensky is the democratically elected president of Ukraine.

Putin's rhetoric is part of a larger attempt to create a cultural mythology in which Russia's history consists of the victory in WWII and a few other notable events (Soviet spaceflights, prowess in sports) all under the benevolent gaze of the Russian Orthodox Church. From an academic perspective it's fascinating (and horrifying). But the rewriting of history leads to dangerous consequences in the real world, as we are now witnessing.

Original poster
Iwonder08 · 27/02/2022 16:17

I am not gone, I am reading responses. What I wanted to come across is not justifying the atrocious actions of Russian president and most certainly not anti westerner Russian propaganda, but pointing out not equal but joined responsibility of US in the current situation.

OP posts:
deragod · 27/02/2022 16:50

Its offensive. Ukrainians are their own people. To suggest that they must be influenced by Americans or Russians is old, good imperialism.

What some of pro Russia forget to tell is that Ukraine was colonised, Ukrainian language and culture were meant to perish.
Some ethnic Russians (approximately 17%) live in Ukraine. So what? Does it mean that Ealing is Poland now?

Ps. The divided between Czech Republic and Slovakia was not that peaceful. It was a rocky road, however there was political will and V4 was formed.

MissConductUS · 27/02/2022 17:02

joined responsibility of US in the current situation.

Because they support the democratically elected government of Ukraine?

If Ukraine wants to leave the Russian sphere of influence should we oppose that and tell them that have no choice in the matter and must remain a vassal state of Russia?

lessthanathirdofanacre · 27/02/2022 17:20

@Iwonder08

I am not gone, I am reading responses. What I wanted to come across is not justifying the atrocious actions of Russian president and most certainly not anti westerner Russian propaganda, but pointing out not equal but joined responsibility of US in the current situation.
There might be a worthwhile discussion to be had about the expansion of NATO. But the US is absolutely not to blame for Russia invading Ukraine. This is not a "both sides are at fault" situation and it is ludicrous to suggest otherwise.
HikingforScenery · 27/02/2022 17:39

@VladmirsPoutine

What I find rather remarkable about this is the 'international solidarity' from countries like Israel, France and US who passionately believe you can't just invade a country and declare it yours. It's almost as though self-awareness is a mythical beast.
Grin
Libraryghost · 01/03/2022 17:39

Working class folks talking about current affairs will not do. Maybe you can set up the 'EDUCATED Russia/ Ukraine' thread and vet who joins?

Libraryghost · 01/03/2022 17:43

Actually I do agree that Russia will be absolutely buggered regardless of the outcome. Ukraine will receive help, ordinary Russians won't- they are completely isolated. Even if the best case scenario happens and Putins big head finally explodes- there will be a massive power vacuum and a return to the mafia wars seen after the fall of the the USSR. I feel sorry for ordinary Russian. Beautiful country, shit corrupt leaders.

Thebestwaytoscareatory · 01/03/2022 18:15

Because they support the democratically elected government of Ukraine?

Well they do now, but they also supported the revolution and overthrowing of the previous democratically elected government of Ukraine so that's a bit of swings and roundabouts.

If Ukraine wants to leave the Russian sphere of influence should we oppose that and tell them that have no choice in the matter and must remain a vassal state of Russia?

No, we just shouldn't be going out our way to encourage or facilitate it and we certainly shouldn't be trying to get them to join NATO and install a western military presence along their border.

I'm sure Tibet, Taiwan, and Mongolia would quite like to be free from the sphere of Chinese influence but we're not rushing to help them. In fact one of the reasons Russia has never been allowed to join NATO is because NATO didn’t want to establish a presence too close to Chinese borders in case it was taken as a sign of agression.

Similarly, many Middle Eastern countries would be delighted to be free from western influence but we've went to extreme lengths to make sure that doesn't happen.

Thereisnolight · 01/03/2022 18:34

@MissConductUS

joined responsibility of US in the current situation.

Because they support the democratically elected government of Ukraine?

If Ukraine wants to leave the Russian sphere of influence should we oppose that and tell them that have no choice in the matter and must remain a vassal state of Russia?

To play Devil’s advocate - well, no, of course no country should tell others what to do. But Ukraine has swung between Russia, the West and themselves for many many generations and especially in the past 8 years. It’s not as if, say, China or North Korea suddenly invaded them out of the blue.

Of course it’s not right that they’re being attacked now and they should expect help in the acute phase - but meanwhile, given the looonng history, are they making ANY attempt to negotiate with Russia to get them to back down? Eg by maybe NOT applying to join the EU right now? Bearing in mind that this isn’t just about them. There’s a potential huge cost to all the other countries whom they expect to join in their fight.
Any thoughts on this? Am I being very unfair?

Octomore · 01/03/2022 18:53

@VladmirsPoutine

Sky News was broadcasting a Molotov cocktail making session, and explaining the finer points of making them stick to vehicles. Can you imagine if Al Jazeera reported like this in Gaza.
Well said!