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Ukraine.. Ignorance

132 replies

Iwonder08 · 27/02/2022 08:29

There are about 300 threads on MN now about Ukraine. A lot of very opinionated people who probably wouldn't be able to point Ukraine on the map and never ever had any interest in the region. There is zero knowledge of the internal violent conflicts in the country, but a lot of messages about 'hero president' or even worse threads to United Kingdom.
I hate Putin passionately as he impacted the life of some people who are dear to me. The conflict will have much worse long term impact on Russia itself rather than Ukraine and he doesn't give a shit.
I respect people's opinions as long as they are educated.
Putin is quite obviously in the wrong as he is breaking the international law and there is no excuse for that, but the overall situation is triggered by US involvement in Ukrainian internal politics as much as Russian interference. There must be consequences for Putin, but also acknowledgment of the impact of US foreign politics in the current conflict.
As usual, simple civilians on both sides will be the victims.

OP posts:
VelvetChairGirl · 27/02/2022 12:09

@TheresSomebodyAtTheDoorNeil

No idea about the politics of it all but didnt Biden try pointing this out and got mocked for it?

Trump has blood on his teeny tiny little hands by the sounds of it. Why do they get away with this shit?

biden is an old war monger
Cbtb · 27/02/2022 12:10

“Until humans learn that there isn’t just one vision and that everyone should be respected for their views and we have no right to impose our personal universe on others then there will be more Ukraines on a microcosmic and macrocosmic basis every day“

Indeed.

If a country “chooses” a person i think is mad to run them so be it. They can think what they want and live like they want. Russia has a right to exist. China has a right to exist. I don’t agree with the governments or politics of these places. Personally I boycott their products and goods as much as I can. I don’t think we should invade them. I don’t agree with the CIA doing more than finding out about potential attacks on the west.

What they can’t do is start telling people in other countries what to do. If the people of Russia “consent” Putin can run his autocratic corrupt country just as he wants. He however cannot start telling other countries what to do and taking them over however pissed off he is.

Postdatedpandemic · 27/02/2022 12:14

@itsgettingweird you mean this Russia Report?
Unpublished?

isc.independent.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/CCS207_CCS0221966010-001_Russia-Report-v02-Web_Accessible.pdf

VelvetChairGirl · 27/02/2022 12:15

@Cbtb

“but how many actually have democracy?

the majority here didn't vote tory they got a minority of the vote and when you filter out voting systems that are not one party one vote you then have the problems of foreign interference in elections and propaganda campaigns to influence the vote, the CIA have a very long history in interfering in others democracy when they dont like whos been voted in or who has taken over in a revolution.

the bay of pigs and the coup in Chile are two very obvious examples of US interference amongst hundreds of others which were far less obvious.“

These are all straw man arguments, an attempt to say look over here instead.

The US has blood on its hands in many places around the world. This does not justify an invasion of a separate sovereign nation that isn’t even in a defence pact with the US. Sovereign nations can make treaties with whomever they want to (as long as the other country wants to as well) Would NATO prefer for Belarus to be a western leaning state and not be aligned with Russia - of course. Does that give NATO grounds to invade them - no of course not.

Democracy here could be improved. It’s pretty good tho, we have free elections. We have civil handovers of power, we can have regime change via the ballot box. We have a pretty independent judiciary who are not afraid to rule against the government. The USA voted out trump and while it looked a bit dodgy for a bit democracy did win out showing that the system works (and they voted him in as well - the system allows for an anti establishment figure to win) By no means is western liberal democracy perfect but it’s the best system on offer.

they are all the same the US backed the coup in 2014 to oust the russian friendly leaders.

imagine if it was the other way around, its all a game of chess to make sure countries have the "right" governments.

Notonthestairs · 27/02/2022 12:23

Thanks for linking the report. I've skimmed through it - it appears to be quite damning (obviously couched in polite diplomatic terms).
What has changed as a result?

Infinitemoon · 27/02/2022 12:25

I agree @VelvetchairGirl but we have a corrupt media that is so full of pro West propaganda that we all become brainwashed sheep going along with everything unquestionably.

Grantanow · 27/02/2022 12:29

I think there is a whiff of whataboutery in this thread. Politics is a dirty game as elites strive for power and wealth and manipulate ordinary people. That's life. No doubt Ukrainian elites are just as bad as Russian or American or British elites but ordinary people in Ukraine are fighting. Good luck to them.

lessthanathirdofanacre · 27/02/2022 12:29

In a thread called "Ukraine. . . Ignorance," your posts simply display tremendous ignorance of the situation. People in eastern Ukraine have not been "oppressed for a long time." That is just a blatant lie, one of many that Putin has used to justify his war of aggression.

Ukraine is a sovereign country, despite Putin's bizarre distortions of history. The West should have responded much more strongly when Russia annexed Crimea. The anaemic response in 2014 simply emboldened Putin to take his current actions.

VelvetChairGirl · 27/02/2022 12:32

@Infinitemoon

I agree *@VelvetchairGirl* but we have a corrupt media that is so full of pro West propaganda that we all become brainwashed sheep going along with everything unquestionably.
yep I am not sure if I said it here or on another thread.

but the media was going on about putin being mad and look he's talking about neo nazis and drug pushers in Ukraine what is he talking about thats crazy he must be mad.

I knew what he was talking about the coup of 2014. I feel like its the twilight zone do people really have memories like goldfish that they are going along with this media rubbish and faking ignorance.

MongoOnlyPawnInGameOfLife · 27/02/2022 12:32

Most people only seem to be able to operate in black and white. It's much easier after all and requires far less effort, plus it's a more simple sell for the newspapers and governments.

It is not a question of US\West = Good, Russia = Bad, more that the US is awful but Russia is worse. You only have to look at the hundreds of thousands of people who have died in US backed wars and conflicts as they come in on the side of some of the worst dictators in history just as long as that dictator keeps their country open for US\Western businesses to exploit.

Nicaragua, Guatamela, Indonesia, El Salvador, Iraq, Libya, Iraq again - they only step in and change course when the dictator starts to veer too far off course, not usually in human rights terms but ones that affect American\Western businesses.

We are kidding ourselves if we think we are the 'good guys' - we are just the least bad alternative. For all the claims about Russian propganda, its clear that the US is far better at manipulating popular opinion in its favour over the long term.

This is actually one of the few conflicts where we can legitimately claim to hold the moral high ground. Putin may not like Nato expansion, but he really has no valid fear that somehow Nato is going to attack Russia. He just hates Russia's decreasing influence in world politics as its role passes to China - a fairly piss poor reason to invade Ukraine.

VelvetChairGirl · 27/02/2022 12:34

@lessthanathirdofanacre

In a thread called "Ukraine. . . Ignorance," your posts simply display tremendous ignorance of the situation. People in eastern Ukraine have not been "oppressed for a long time." That is just a blatant lie, one of many that Putin has used to justify his war of aggression.

Ukraine is a sovereign country, despite Putin's bizarre distortions of history. The West should have responded much more strongly when Russia annexed Crimea. The anaemic response in 2014 simply emboldened Putin to take his current actions.

but they voted.

www.huffpost.com/entry/crimea-votes-russia_n_4978631

MongoOnlyPawnInGameOfLife · 27/02/2022 12:38

@Grantanow

I think there is a whiff of whataboutery in this thread. Politics is a dirty game as elites strive for power and wealth and manipulate ordinary people. That's life. No doubt Ukrainian elites are just as bad as Russian or American or British elites but ordinary people in Ukraine are fighting. Good luck to them.
Well clearly. Doesn't hurt to point that out though.

Nationalism is one of the key tools the elites use to maintain control and there is nothing better than a good war to stoke some nationalistic fervour.

We can support the people of Ukraine in this particular fight while at the same time acknowledging that the Western system is still deeply flawed (and with probably more blood on its hands).

Cbtb · 27/02/2022 12:41

We are kidding ourselves if we think we are the 'good guys' - we are just the least bad alternative. For all the claims about Russian propganda, its clear that the US is far better at manipulating popular opinion in its favour over the long term.

This is actually one of the few conflicts where we can legitimately claim to hold the moral high ground. Putin may not like Nato expansion, but he really has no valid fear that somehow Nato is going to attack Russia. He just hates Russia's decreasing influence in world politics as its role passes to China - a fairly piss poor reason to invade Ukraine.

Indeed - wouldn’t you say this situation is pretty black and white actually?

lessthanathirdofanacre · 27/02/2022 12:42

but they voted.

Yes, and I'm quite certain that if a vote was held in Tijuana Mexico about whether to join the US, the majority of residents would vote yes. That would not justify the US sending troops in to annex Tijuana.

The referendum in Crimea was problematic in numerous ways. There is a reason that most of the world does not recognise it as valid.

VelvetChairGirl · 27/02/2022 12:49

He just hates Russia's decreasing influence in world politics as its role passes to China

Russia has far more resources then china and is literally the breadbasket of the world as the largest producer of wheat.

god alone knows what china will do when their powerhouse inevitably crumbles, they are now what Japan was after WW2 the cheap manufacturer of the world but that always leads to them eventually becoming more wealthy that filtering down to a higher expected living standards and increased wages which eventually means they price themselves out of being the worlds sweat shop, other then cheap labour china has nothing they do not have the massive natural resources Russia has and due to their insane investment market building countless ghost cities, their farmland has reduced from 17% of the country to 13% in ten years, they are not anywhere near being self sufficient let alone able to export large amounts of crops not that anyone would want any from such a heavily polluted land.

the CCP are absolutely insane tho they would have no qualms about nuking the world.

Peoniesandpeaches · 27/02/2022 12:52

I would imagine those fleeing or already killed would disagree with your sentiment that this will impact Russia more than it will them. There will need to be a hell of a lot of rebuilding done after this conflict is over.

VelvetChairGirl · 27/02/2022 12:54

@lessthanathirdofanacre

but they voted.

Yes, and I'm quite certain that if a vote was held in Tijuana Mexico about whether to join the US, the majority of residents would vote yes. That would not justify the US sending troops in to annex Tijuana.

The referendum in Crimea was problematic in numerous ways. There is a reason that most of the world does not recognise it as valid.

highly likely they world tho, bringing freedom and democracy and all that. like with the 10 states that used to be part of mexico.

my canadian ancestors are still very proud of burning down the white house in 1812 when they tried to spread their freedom and democracy northward.

DdraigGoch · 27/02/2022 13:04

but they voted.
@VelvetChairGirl if you believe that, result then you'd believe anything.

EatCakeBeMerry · 27/02/2022 13:04

Can I just ask what makes you more educated about the situation than those other 300+ posters?

Your posts so far are pretty vague and don't come across as particularly eye opening or educational on the topic so I fail to see how this thread is more thought out than those you criticise. Unfortunately there are people who do not have the luxury of a good education but they have as much right to talk about current affairs as those who are.

DdraigGoch · 27/02/2022 13:06

The comma there should have been one word later

VelvetChairGirl · 27/02/2022 13:40

@DdraigGoch

but they voted. *@VelvetChairGirl* if you believe that, result then you'd believe anything.
and if it had gone the other way why would the Russians believe it?
Zilla1 · 27/02/2022 13:48

Facts are thin on the ground and one party's news is another's propaganda but it's perhaps informative to see that after 3-4 days of attack by a superior force directly and through proxies and after years of preparation and potentially infiltrating illegals, the Ukrainian government still stands and Russia's entreaties to the Ukrainian armed services to take power have not been effective. Given the proclivity for armed forces in unstable countries to see such conflict as a job opportunity, that is an interesting signal. Given the ethnic mix in Ukraine, the Ukrainians appear somewhat united and willing to fight for their country beyond the annex/'liberated' Regions rather than welcome the Russian armed forces 'liberators'? into the body of the country. To some extent, every day might be called a triumph. Unless Ukraine were a police state able to simultaneously fight an invasion and oppress its populace, external entreaties to overthrow its 'Nazi' government haven't yet found receptive ears.

Zilla1 · 27/02/2022 13:49

There are other indicative signals but perhaps for another post.

LizDoingTheCanCan · 27/02/2022 13:58

@Notonthestairs

Thanks for linking the report. I've skimmed through it - it appears to be quite damning (obviously couched in polite diplomatic terms). What has changed as a result?
Absolutely nothing. More than that, Johnson has actively refused to stop Russian oligarchs using London to launder dirty money.

An interesting commentary from Dominic Grieve on the matter:

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/27/our-tolerance-of-russian-corruption-in-britain-fatally-clouded-our-judgment-ukraine