Ukraine.. Ignorance

[Iwonder08]

There are about 300 threads on MN now about Ukraine. A lot of very opinionated people who probably wouldn't be able to point Ukraine on the map and never ever had any interest in the region. There is zero knowledge of the internal violent conflicts in the country, but a lot of messages about 'hero president' or even worse threads to United Kingdom.
I hate Putin passionately as he impacted the life of some people who are dear to me. The conflict will have much worse long term impact on Russia itself rather than Ukraine and he doesn't give a shit.
I respect people's opinions as long as they are educated.
Putin is quite obviously in the wrong as he is breaking the international law and there is no excuse for that, but the overall situation is triggered by US involvement in Ukrainian internal politics as much as Russian interference. There must be consequences for Putin, but also acknowledgment of the impact of US foreign politics in the current conflict.
As usual, simple civilians on both sides will be the victims.

@Iwonder08

There are about 300 threads on MN now about Ukraine. A lot of very opinionated people who probably wouldn't be able to point Ukraine on the map and never ever had any interest in the region. There is zero knowledge of the internal violent conflicts in the country, but a lot of messages about 'hero president' or even worse threads to United Kingdom. I hate Putin passionately as he impacted the life of some people who are dear to me. The conflict will have much worse long term impact on Russia itself rather than Ukraine and he doesn't give a shit. I respect people's opinions as long as they are educated. Putin is quite obviously in the wrong as he is breaking the international law and there is no excuse for that, but the overall situation is triggered by US involvement in Ukrainian internal politics as much as Russian interference. There must be consequences for Putin, but also acknowledgment of the impact of US foreign politics in the current conflict. As usual, simple civilians on both sides will be the victims.

Yanbu.

Also, when you've finished blaming the US for this, would you care to remind us of the promises Russia made in exchange for Ukraine abandoning its nuclear weapons?

Ukraine was the only country to ever do that. This invasion pretty much guarantees no country will ever voluntarily cease a nuclear programme ever again now.

UK was once part of slave trading then moved to abolish it.

Yes. Indeed, they woke up one morning and figured out trading humans like cattle was morally reprehensible. That's why they moved to abolish it. I'm sure of it.

US inteference- last(current) president backed by US, previous one was back by Russia. Neither is good for the country who wants to be independent. If Ukraine joined NATO then US will arrange their military bases close to Russian border which is very desirable for US and not at all desirable for Russia and will generally have a lot of influence in the country so close to Russia.
Re internal conflicts- People in Eastern Ukraine have been oppressed for a long time, however I don't believe even for a second Putin is actually acting in their best interest as they try to dress it up in pro-russian media.
All of these might explain the situation, but not justify it.

I’ve got a feeling that the Americans are a useful scapegoat for the Russians here. I have a very dear Russian mate who keeps muttering on about the interfering Americans who think they are always right.

OP I agree. My Russian friends, while completely against Putin, explained the situation in a similar way and said that this issue is not as black and white as it seems.

@Iwonder08

There are about 300 threads on MN now about Ukraine. A lot of very opinionated people who probably wouldn't be able to point Ukraine on the map and never ever had any interest in the region. There is zero knowledge of the internal violent conflicts in the country, but a lot of messages about 'hero president' or even worse threads to United Kingdom. I hate Putin passionately as he impacted the life of some people who are dear to me. The conflict will have much worse long term impact on Russia itself rather than Ukraine and he doesn't give a shit. I respect people's opinions as long as they are educated. Putin is quite obviously in the wrong as he is breaking the international law and there is no excuse for that, but the overall situation is triggered by US involvement in Ukrainian internal politics as much as Russian interference. There must be consequences for Putin, but also acknowledgment of the impact of US foreign politics in the current conflict. As usual, simple civilians on both sides will be the victims.

I agree, OP.

As usual the mainstream media is presenting a misleading 'goody/baddy' binary. The situation is much more complex. Putin's behaviour is despicable but there is a bigger picture here as you say. This situation has been a co-creation and dates back decades.
No doubt people who believe every word MSM tells them will label alternative perspectives as conspiracy theories or pro-Putin sympathy. It's simply the truthy.

*truth

Sorry, I should have said that the issue is not black and white, not that I agree with your views. I don't pretend to understand the issues.

Putin's invasion of Ukraine is EXACTLY why NATO presence is needed on Russia's doorstep.

Ukraine has chosen Europe and freedom and democracy over living under Putin's regime, a new Soviet Union. Get the fuck over it.

we got rid of slavery for several reasons and most of them economic.

1 Christians thought it was immoral.
2 the costly plantation uprisings that had to be brought under control by the British navy.
3 the fall in the price of sugar.
4 the proven cost savings and increased work of those in the free labour markets of other parts of the empire compared to slaves that actually cost more to maintain.

I don't think you need deep internal knowledge to post that you are 'helping' by streaming Ukrainian music. Most of the posts are just nonsense tbh

Ordinary Ukrainians are fighting for their freedom on DAY 4 against a MUCH greater force and hundreds of thousands of citizens have/are fleeing and hiding. Isn't it obvious they do not want this Russian occupation?

Russia hoovering up bits of Europe is bound to get us a bit jittery. Regardless of the rights and wrongs of it, the general aim of the US policy is to stop Russia getting too powerful and that is in line with what most of Europe want as well.

Sky News was broadcasting a Molotov cocktail making session, and explaining the finer points of making them stick to vehicles. Can you imagine if Al Jazeera reported like this in Gaza.

So what's your point and why start another thread if you have an issue with threads on Ukraine? I think YABU for assuming people don't know anything about Ukraine - I have several hundred colleagues there (I work in IT). I've been going there for years, as have several others from my company. I'm sure others are similar with friends, family, colleagues and other connections. I think it's largely a good thing that people are so interested and outraged but what's happening - would you rather it was ignored by everyone unless they have a doctorate in Eastern European relations or something?

Totally get why Ukraine wanting to be closer to the west and join nato would make Russia a bit jittery. If our close neighbours decided to ally with the enemy (say Ireland decided to join Russia - clearly they won’t) id be a bit freaked as well. Would that mean that the uk would be justified to invade them - no. There are very very few acceptable reasons to invade a sovereign state and even less a democratic one. If the west and NATO are more attractive to Ukraine than Russia then Russia needs to look at it self and figure out why. Ukraine perhaps should have offered the regions wishing to separate referendums on succession- that does not justify invasion. I’m 2014 Ukraine gave up its independent nuclear deterrent- that is a clear step away from conflict. NATO did not grant membership asap. This is Putins doing.

And before I’m accused of hippocracy I would support NI becoming its own state or joining RI if a MAJORITY of the people who live there voted for that. Also believe that the people of Scotland should have the right to independence if they want and same with Catalan (I think it would be a bad idea as this states would be too small to be self supporting but insisting my view by military might would be wrong)

TLDR belief in democracy before all else. The people of a region have the right to decide who governs them even if they pick an idiot. No interference with sovereign states unless they attack first.

Yes there probably is much more to it than people realise, but Putin has made the decision to attack a country and displace millions of people. I think he had a choice not to do that, whether in your view he was antagonised or not. He doesn't care about the deaths of innocent people. It says a lot in itself.

@VladmirsPoutine

Sky News was broadcasting a Molotov cocktail making session, and explaining the finer points of making them stick to vehicles. Can you imagine if Al Jazeera reported like this in Gaza.

I watched that. I thought it was very odd. Irresponsible even. Then again, there is probably a lot of information available anyway online.

So any country whose ancestors behaved badly should sit back and ignore what's going on. Useful to know. What about countries whose ancestors treated their own women badly? They shouldn't care how women are treated in other countries right?

@Iwonder08

There are about 300 threads on MN now about Ukraine. A lot of very opinionated people who probably wouldn't be able to point Ukraine on the map and never ever had any interest in the region. There is zero knowledge of the internal violent conflicts in the country, but a lot of messages about 'hero president' or even worse threads to United Kingdom. I hate Putin passionately as he impacted the life of some people who are dear to me. The conflict will have much worse long term impact on Russia itself rather than Ukraine and he doesn't give a shit. I respect people's opinions as long as they are educated. Putin is quite obviously in the wrong as he is breaking the international law and there is no excuse for that, but the overall situation is triggered by US involvement in Ukrainian internal politics as much as Russian interference. There must be consequences for Putin, but also acknowledgment of the impact of US foreign politics in the current conflict. As usual, simple civilians on both sides will be the victims.

I think this exactly!!!!!!! So horrified by it all. So many people being manipulated - and with conscription on both sides, forced to fight for these utter narcissists.

I also notice a lot of journalists / commentator types decrying how things like this just "don't happen in a civilised, European city" or a variant of "this isn't a typical war, this isn't like Afganistan or Iraq."

And countries whose ancestors treated children badly ditto

You haven't explained anything that we don't already know.

Are you referring to the coup ousting a pro Russian government ?

Russia fucked the countries it occupied to create the USSR, it moved in Russian citizens, in some cases against the Geneva convention which it had signed previously, and spent years on ,"russiafication " of these countries, attempting to remove their cultural identity and language, this is why you have any pro Russian sentiment in these countries, people that had been placed in Ukraine by Russia during occupation and in the last 70 years. I definitely think that there should be no pro Russian government in Ukraine for at least 100 years to enable the country to reclaim its identity free from the influence of Russia. Unfortunately Russia does not like this and is reverting to its pre ww2 and cold War self, if it can't determine Ukraine's future for its own means, it will simply take Ukraine.