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So do Black lives actually matter then?

217 replies

WeGonBeAite · 11/07/2016 18:49

Surprised to see no conversation on one of the biggest issues in the news at present.

The one thread I have seen referencing this took the angle of the police officers dead. I did give it a quick browse, but as usual the thread was derailed and focused on proving that UK news channels poorly covered the most recent deaths and that seemed to be it! Hmm

I haven't come across any real discussion on the actual incidents and more importantly the obvious trend of police brutality on black lives.

Why?

There are protests all over the world right now, and there have been three in London over the weekend alone.

In a civilized society, uproar should not just come from a select minority, but rather from everyone!

Where is the mainstream voice? Where is the outrage? Where are the allies? Where are you?

Do Black lives not matter then?

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BrandNewAndImproved · 13/07/2016 18:07

supersoft do you really not know what white privilege is?

quencher · 13/07/2016 18:34

I actually think it's a disgrace that people think they are a disgrace. Mn can be shit sometimes when reading comments like that. I hope that one day black people won't be fighting for basic rights that almost everyone else has. Blm is for the general black person rights. Not just innocent people being murdered.

Blm =supremacist. Don't make me laugh. GrinI hope they fight harder to create change.

Let's hope American police starts to collect proper data about who they kill. Let's hope that all those killed, as long as the person is found innocent the policeman goes to jail with no cover ups.
Let's hope that less black women die in police custody and their cases are investigated and the people responsible punished correctly.
Let's hope that what's happening in America regarding petty crimes people are not thrown in jail because they cannot pay $300 fine.
Let's hope that all people in America get similar sentences regardless or race or family background.
Let's hope that if a young black child commits a crime is not branded a thug by default and a white child called lost or loosing their way and needs help.
Lets hope that all drug charges are the same for all races even though the highest number of drug takers both in the USA and Europe are middle class men and women.
Let's hope that laws are not made to benefit one group of people while it punishes another.
Let's hope that Americans would stop penalising and sending black men to jail for just wearing their trouser the way they want because it's another way to make money for their local authority.
Let's hope that women in New Orleans who love to sit in their front porches in groups should be allowed to chat and have fun without interruption from the police for breaking the law.
Let's hope that young black girls in America are treated with the same respect any white girls would without being man handled or thrown round the room like a punch bag by police officers
Let's hope that black parents in American can give their children every freedom any child deserves and not be scared their child will turn up in bin bag or handcuffs for having water fights.
Let's hope that every black woman matters to every feminist who accepts that women all have the same rights.

I could go on. Let's hear again about Blm and how it's bullshit.

supersoftcuddlytoys · 13/07/2016 19:04

systemic racism in the UK is very obvious to me Can you give us a specific instance of 'systematic racism' in the UK. Not someone displaying a racist view, but the systematic implementation of racism?

Puzzledandpissedoff · 13/07/2016 19:05

Since Diamond Reynolds has been mentioned, here's something else which surprises me: how come she felt able to film so much of her BF being shot and killed?

If she honestly felt threatened by the policeman, or believed she might be, I can see that she'd film his approach ... but to carry on as her partner lay bleeding and dying next to her? I realise we're all different, but if that was me I'd be in a complete state - yelling out probably, trying to comfort him certainly, cursing the policeman possibly, but most definitely not fiddling with my phone

This honestly isn't some attempt to cast doubt on her in any way, I appreciate there may not even be an answer, and I can't possibly know as I wasn't there ... but I just couldn't help wondering why Confused

quencher · 13/07/2016 20:48

You know that without that phone it would be her words against theirs right? People like you would not even contemplate believing her. Now that you have the film you have doubt about her calmness to try to protect herself. You think if she had panicked and tried to move she would be alive? Honest question? Get out of bubble. You have already casted your doubt.

Felascloak · 13/07/2016 20:48

Can you give us a specific instance of 'systematic racism' in the UK.

Yes. I very rarely see black people in managerial positions in companies I've worked with and for. Similar to lack of women, I feel this is a reflection of systemic bias against black people.

Felascloak · 13/07/2016 20:51

puzzled if you listen to her interview she says she filmed it so she could prove what happened to her boyfriend because she couldn't believe she was on the end of the kind of violence against black people she'd heard about (totally paraphrasing, I'm sure her interview is available on BBC somewhere).
I think it's admirable she kept a cool head, or this wouldn't have made the news and she'd have had less chance of getting justice.

BrandNewAndImproved · 13/07/2016 22:39

Anecdotal but a new girl joined my dcs school last week as she was being racially abused.

Anecdotal again. My best friend is black and has been called the n word out in public by a random man when she accidently stepped in front of him.

Anecdotal again. My dd is mixed race and her older brother is black. He regularly gets stopped and searched. They also ask him if his bike is stolen. I've never been stopped and searched or questioned about my bike. My neighbours boy is white and the same age in the same area. He's also never been stopped and searched.

I have a good statistic though. Black women in America are the highest educated group.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 13/07/2016 23:04

People like you would not even contemplate believing her

Considering I've in no way doubted the account - and indeed made it clear I couldn't as I wasn't there - I wonder why you'd choose to be quite so rude

However in case more measured posters may be wondering, let me say again that while I understand recording anyone who's believed to be a threat, I'm simply surprised Diamond was able to do it under the kind of circumstances which would, I imagine, reduce many to a total wreck

Felascloak · 14/07/2016 08:01

brandnew Black people are more likely to be sentenced for custodial sentence and those sentences are longer
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/courts-are-biased-against-blacks-with-white-offenders-less-likely-to-be-jailed-for-similar-crimes-8959804.html
Black people are more likely to be tasered m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/8283772.html?edition=uk
Oh and I found that report you referred to, despite getting most degrees in the US black women only make up 8% of private sector jobs and 1.5% managerial jobs. Strange you missed that highly relevant bit of information out, almost as if you were trying to make out accusations of systematic bias were incorrect. Why would you do that?

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/black-women-become-most-educated-group-in-us-a7063361.html

Branleuse · 14/07/2016 08:07

its a massive issue, but we're impotent over here arent we. Black lives do matter, but not to american police or judicial system. There appears to be a genocide of black people going on over there

Theydontknowweknowtheyknow · 14/07/2016 08:17

What amazes me is the amount of vitriol online towards the BLM movement and the framing of it as a black supremacist movement asking for special protection when all they're asking for is equality.

I would imagine it's roughly the same type of people who frame feminism as a female supremacist movement asking for special protection.

It is pure gaslighting.

Felascloak · 14/07/2016 08:51

Yy they
Gives me the rage. I read it as "women/black people, know your place! Stop being uppity!"
Supremacists my arse

supersoftcuddlytoys · 14/07/2016 09:09

'Not many black people where I work', is proof of a systematic bias against Black people then? I did say provide proof not anecdote or opinion? Not good enough I'm afraid, please point to what our UK society does exactly to support and encourage racism? Point us to a single, UK domestic law that is racist, in intent? Do that and I'll agree with you - as I hate racism too. Unless you can show who these racists are, give concrete examples of injustice it's just emotion and wishful thinking on your part.. But do that and we can fight them together. Just bellowing 'racism' at whoever and wherever your emotions lead you, is completely worthless and pointless,

You seem to think your feelings trump basic common sense, facts and data quencher? You and others are trying to craft a narrative around 'there obviously is racism somewhere, somewhere out there in the ether, it's just got to be'. The problem with this emotional rhetoric is - it doesn't help people solve problems, in fact it creates more division and more disappointment because you're telling people, especially the young impressionable ones, that every problem they come up against, every obstacle and difficulty. If life just didn't turn out as shiningly as expected, you have a shadowy, nameless, faceless group to blame for it all. A group who are getting together and colluding to find ways to make you fail. A ready-made demonology that explains it all away. The racist society you live in. No one will succeed in that environment.

Back to the US. I lived in Chicago last year and in that one city alone, in 2015, 2000 + people were shot, and 92% of those shootings was black man shooting black man and out of those 2000, 500 + black people died. The black pop' of Chicago is around 38%. So 38% of the pop' did 92% of the shootings of blacks and 100% of the blacks killed by guns were killed by blacks.
This year we are already over 2000. These are the facts and not what my emotions tell me, but the facts continue - (Now I know this will be excruciatingly difficult for you to face, as it's inconceivable for you that black people could be at fault) but black children are failing terribly at school in America, and black men are shooting each other in immense proportions compared to the rest of the pop'. There are disproportionate numbers of black people in jail for murder, & weapons charges? The single motherhood numbers in the black community jumped from 20 to 70% - just as the civil rights movement gained in strength and influence, at the same time. Are you telling us tthat the US is more racist now than it was in 1960 ? If so explain how that happened?

But this of course will stop when white members of the Police force change? I'm sure that's a message that will be well received by black people everywhere, 'rely on the White authority figures to make the changes that will allow you to flourish'. But In the meantime - as you were'!!!

As for that utter drivel about so called "white privilege" I'm just a bit shocked to see it applied in the real world, outside some soppy, social studies class where Marxist groupthink reigns supreme. Its too silly for words.

Backingvocals · 14/07/2016 11:13

There is definitely a problem in this country but I think it's very hard to unpick it - there must be so many different causes. I agree that I cannot see one obvious law that creates these barriers but they are there, no doubt.

I have interviewed hundreds of people in my role in financial services in London. I can only recall interviewing two black people in all that time and neither was black British (one African American and one African). Obviously I don't know what race the people are who don't get interviewed but I suspect the problem is even deeper than "black people don't get interviewed" as I doubt many of the rejected CVs were from black people (no evidence for this other than gut feel). I think many black people don't apply for jobs in finance for a million reasons - none of which are ok in a multicultural society.

Finance is particularly class-bound and race-bound. I note that other equally apparently old fashioned industries (law, politics) are doing much better than finance.

I note also that despite living in London my whole life, I only have a couple of black friends (partly through working in a white industry). Lives seem to diverge here in the UK and I don't think we are as multicultural as we think we are.

BrandNewAndImproved · 14/07/2016 13:24

felas people like you are why I don't bother discussing shit like this online.

I'm not even going to bother to get you to see my point which you have so spectacularly missed.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 14/07/2016 13:47

In (Chicago) alone, in 2015, 2000 + people were shot, and 92% of those shootings was black man shooting black man and out of those 2000, 500 + black people died. The black pop' of Chicago is around 38%. So 38% of the pop' did 92% of the shootings of blacks and 100% of the blacks killed by guns were killed by blacks

I appreciate that you're referring to one city only - also that the situation's complex and gun crime is just one reason for jail time - but if those figures are correct and anything like representative, I find myself wondering whether the % of black people in prison is quite as disproportionate as we're often told

I need to go and dig into this a bit further ...

SenecaFalls · 14/07/2016 14:12

please point to what our UK society does exactly to support and encourage racism? Point us to a single, UK domestic law that is racist, in intent?

Systemic racism is much broader than legal systems. People's personal experiences are valid indicators of systemic racism.

quencher · 14/07/2016 15:32

You seem to think your feelings trump basic common sense, facts and data my feelings don't trump data. The only issue is with American police not collecting and keeping data on how many people they kill when they can collect data for the number of police killed. In my opinion they probably have it but do not release the data.

I have also stated either on this thread or another that being shot by police is the least of Americas' races issues because it's the tip of the iceberg. It's a manifestation of their system as a whole because these are people we as humans are meant to trust. They should offer protection.

Black on black crimes have always been tackled by black people. It's just not news worthy for people to focus on. It's not something I deny that does not exist. I know it does, so is white on white crime and in terms of racial bias, it's just crime or a shooting because guess what? White people are the default and their crimes do not count as other. Would I love for this to be tackled even more, absolutely yes, the only way we can tackle the problem is by asking the why a lot of black men in areas like you have mentioned would see a life of crime as something better or the only option. At what age do they realise that they cannot get out of their neighbourhood? Are the parents aware their children can actually break the cycle of poverty? The black community has a come a long away from the sixties and don't tell me the black lives where better then because if it were you would not have had the rise in the black panther whose obligation and principle was the feed and protect poor black neighbourhoods that had been forgotten. A lot of black neighbourhoods that have tried to developed were always destroyed by white supremacist groups.

A great deal of studies have been done which shows that lots of teachers are hasher on black students and children. both in the uk and America the teachers have similar mentality on how they treat black children. What most studies have also proved is that in primary school, a lot of black children tend do very well and have lots of confidence. It's when they get to secondary school that the educational achievements and confidence in their ability starts to decline. Why is that? It's also at this age when you have lots of social issues directly affecting young black children.
The one good news that came up this year in the uk is that the standard of black students has risen. Hooray, still a long way to go.

You and others are trying to craft a narrative around 'there obviously is racism somewhere, somewhere out there in the ether, it's just got to be'. The problem with this emotional rhetoric is - it doesn't help people solve problems, in fact it creates more division and more disappointment because you're telling people, especially the young impressionable ones, that every problem they come up against, every obstacle and difficulty. If life just didn't turn out as shiningly as expected, you have a shadowy, nameless, faceless group to blame for it all. A group who are getting together and colluding to find ways to make you fai
Trying to deny racism exist and everyone should burry their heads in sand while black children and their parents suffer and die senselessly in the hands of the police is a bit naive, don't you think? I would have said ignorant but I don't think you are at all, you just think the America is not prejudicial and hard work alone can get you places when such things rarely happen to white working class people who are stack in a cycle of poverty. The deference here is that social class isn't the problem but a whole race of people is discriminated against. Take for example the black doctor who treat the police officers shot during the match last week. He stated that he may have treated the police officers but still had the fear for the police. His education and the ability to not be in poverty has not stopped the contestant threat and fear of the police.

No one is colluding as you have stated, they are just going on living their lives in a bubble while supporting each and forgetting or even not noticing that they are being racist. That is what white privileged is. The ability to go for a job and the employer seeing you as one of their own. They don't debate whether you would feet in or it would be OK to have you as one of the faces in the company. They don't debate whether their clients would be accepting of you. They don't debate whether you will be respected in position by their clients and the people you would work with. White privilege is when you can walk through the airport and no one think you are carrying a bomb. White privileges is when you can have a child and expect them to be whatever they want to be without thinking about which jobs they will be accepted in and not have a mental break down. White privilegenow when you can voice your opinion ant not be called scary and aggressive because your black women, while for a white woman be described as bossy while a white male authoritative with good leadership skill. Undermining black women's ability to step out and be themselves creating mental illness because they are sacred to offend and exercise their right. Feeling like everyone is against them and failing to have the potential to just ask for a pay rise. White privilege is when some places like like London expect a shop lifter to be black person when the majority of this sort of crime is also committed by middle white people. The most actually in high end stores supermarkets in London. In the shopping centres in New York the constant following of black people while a white person can shop lift without being noticed.

Let's talk about America and how dived it is racially. Are they not the same people who still divide swimming pools, not intentionally off cause. Most black Americans make jokes about their swimming pools always being dry and never opening. Off cause that is not racist but circumstance, right? That they live in the poor areas and on the black side of housings.

Don't even get me started with the divide in New Orleans and how racism manifested it's self when hurricane Katrina destroyed the place.

A lot of black people are living in the circle of poverty the same way you have lots of working class people. Most People don't stay in poverty out of choice. Most black people who live in deprived areas have poor schools with very little support. How do you get good achievements out of schools that do not offer proper education. If you cannot put food on the table, you not be able to afford tutoring, the ,most likely thing is the parents may not have had adequate education to help their children. saving for fees will be the last thing on your mind too. Sports has been a great thing in the black community because they are using it as a stepping stone to a better life. Probably the only reason why they are actually picked for games is because it physical and people don't have to read to see it. Man vs man or woman vs woman. Yes, discrimination exist in these areas too but because it's played in the open, people can see abilities and judge it on that. You can't just drop it in the bin when the name does not suit you. The racial bias is in full force when paper work is involved and the sports stars have to get endorsements.

It's also, impossible to get out of a cycle of poverty when lots of black men can't read and write. Not because they are all dyslectic but because the education system has failed them as a group.

The single motherhood numbers in the black community jumped from 20 to 70% - just as the civil rights movement gained in strength and influence, at the same time. Are you telling us tthat the US is more racist now than it was in 1960 ? If so explain how that happened?
I would say that it was also around the same time the media influence become massive and every where. I have spoken a lot bout this here on Mn and it has a lot to do with ingrained racism that has been internalised based on self hatred. Am not even going to go into much detail because it would need a thread of its own.

Secondly, if you have always taken families away from people, you cannot expect them to all of a sudden become homogenous (am saying this because of how slaves where treated. Most families where separated and sold without any regards for what they feel or what they were as a family unit. They are humans, husbands, wives and children were sold without a second thought.) I do think the first point I post is more in effect now than the second. Also, the second parents is on the rise in the general public. By the way, the most recent studies also showed that black women who were not married had better mental health than those who were. This was based on women who had children and where either cohabiting vs married.

In the USA, the numbers on younger mothers in the last few years has fallen the most out all the racial groups, It's also around the same times as numbers of educated women in the black community rose too be the highest average among all race groups. Black people have to fight for the equality, they have always worked hard. This will pay off in the long run. At the moment, if their lives are at risk from the police, they need to campaign against. If their sons lives are at risk, they should campaign.

quencher · 14/07/2016 15:39

Before I forget, just watch Theresa Mary's first speech as prime minster in the uk and tell me why she does mention police bias and inequality when dealing with black people. If there was no issue of racism and inequality she would not having it as a point of concern, an objective she will have to deal with in her ministerial role.

Felascloak · 14/07/2016 16:30

brandnew okay Hmm
Your post read - anecdotal- bad racism example, anecdotal - bad racism example, fact - black people doing better than white.
Yes I interpret that as racist, if there was another nuance that I've misunderstood I would love to know it

kesstrel · 14/07/2016 20:10

IIRC the reason single motherhood numbers jumped in the US in the 60s was due to the implementation of welfare policies that penalised mothers who lived with their partners. It has always been difficult for black men to get reliable work, and it was even worse back then, so they couldn't compete with the welfare system. It created a downward spiral of destabilisation of the ethos of family.

peachpudding · 14/07/2016 20:38

why she does mention police bias and inequality

Whether or not there is actually bias and inequality within the police there is undeniably a perceived bias and that perception needs to be dealt with.

BrandNewAndImproved · 14/07/2016 21:56

I was posting the anecdotal accounts of racism in this country for the poster who didnt believe in white privilege. I didn't realise my post would be taken out of context from someone who didn't bother reading the thread.

As for basically calling me racist because I posted a good statistic words fail me. This is why white people don't get on the band wagon for black lives matter like how they do for other ethnicitys. I personally think it's amazing how black women have done so well in the most racist country in the world. It's a positive thing to be celebrated - - unless you can't see that--.

I watched a really good documentary where white British reporters went to America and filmed the kkk. They also filmed a few black protests and some of the protesters back lives. It was really interesting if anyone wants to look it up it might still be on iplayer. The kkk were obviously shot away in the head, some of the protesters were really open about their lives and experiences of racism in America and one of the protesters hated white people.

My opinion is that Black men as a whole won't rise up to be a force to take seriously in America. They won't break the cycle of black on black crime. They are taken in with buying the latest Jordens and wanting to live like they're always in Compton. Black men are their own worst enemy. The system is against them but they can't or won't change it. The minute they get a good job or do well they get accused of being a white man's bitch or acting white. Black Americans spend their money in shops that aren't black owned, they don't keep the money in their community and the gang warfare is ridiculous. They don't seem to be able to pull it together and the cycle continues. Self hate left over from the slave trade with the inherent racist Americans means black men will kill themselves off and finish the job the kkk wants to do.

They are the crabs in a barrel so this isn't a judgement it's just my sad opinion.

Black people need to pull together but also have others fighting for their cause. It won't get better if anyone who says anything gets called racist. It won't get better if the blm doesn't want to work with white people. Black lives matter, what the world did to black people should be repaid and unity for all is what needs to happen. Not white people on top or black people on top, not one race more then the other. although there is no such thing as race we are all the one human race.

The system has always been against them but it won't get better.

supersoftcuddlytoys · 15/07/2016 10:59

Someone clearly needs to point out to - President Obama, Colin Powell, Cony Rice, the innumerable black Senators, Councillors, Congressmen/ Women, Judges, Mayors, CEO's, Police chiefs, Senators, the ever growing black middle class. And leaving aside those Black American's who have excelled in the Arts, Sports and Entertainment fields, as well as the growing black middle class, that they are all supine victims of the most racist country in the world ? Do that. please, whoever made that imbecilic remark and I'm sure they'll be grateful for it.

Ahh "White privaledge", "the Media" and "Slavery" ! Of course - how silly of me. All that rhetoric quencher, basically to wheel out the 3 great monoliths of 'Social Justice Warriors' ire? You see Folks, 'we' know for a fact, that when these three un provable, abstracts realign themselves, and white people have atoned sufficiently for – Slavery, then these following three facts will no longer be pointed to – (which we'll just pretend don't exist anyway):

  1. That 90% of murdered blacks die at the hands of other blacks. 2). That Blacks are 27% more likely to attack whites than vice versa and 8 times more likely to attack Hispanics 3). That 90% of murdered blacks die at the hands of other blacks.

Stat's are taken from the 2015's FBI homicide report, available online.

You see in the muddled world of the comical BLM thugs, and their white guilt fantasist friends, black lives matter only when ended by The Police or a white person in a manner that be exploited for political and financial gain and no! they do not want to hear your murder stat's, shut up and go away -we're not listening !!!

Criminologist Dr Richard Johnston of the University of Toledo after extensive research, puts succinctly the contradictions and hypocrisies of BLM. I suggest any objective truth-seekers that might be reading, look his work up. He asserts, that statistically, at current rates, it would take 41 years of blacks killed by police to equal the number of blacks killed by other blacks in a single year. 400 people are killed every year by Police, 61% of whom are white, 32% black males. Black men are 6.5% of the U.S. pop' yet they are responsible for 52% of all murders. But of course - for the leftist counter argument, we give you, you guessed it, the Media, the Police the privileged whites who made it all that way. Culture, personal responsibility? Pah...!!

It matters not one tick either that 74% of black children are raised with no father. As for the implementation of welfare policies This made it nigh on impossible for Black men in overwhelming numbers, to not walk away from their parental responsibilities, is that right? BLM and their useful idiots on the Left, would use, as a wider justification, "Slavery" and the Media for the reasons for this. Because if newspaper reports, ie, headlines here, press articles there, go against them (it's claimed) this has the effect of sending the entire black race in America into a tailspin of decades long - moral and social decline. Leftist logic in its purest form on display - right here...

They completely reject the fact that the Police are in the black community in the first place, policing the massively disproportionate high levels of gun crime therein. BLM call that - 'racism' - naturally. The Police, are choosing to be there obviously, risking their lives, rather than rescuing kittens from trees.

Apologies for the flippancy to anyone rational that might be reading, but this is pretty much the tone of this discussion at present. If, when trying to debate rationally, by offering facts and data you are met with 'Chomskyesque' conspiracy theories, emotion and mythology. What can be achieved?

Some of us seek the truth, others wish to live with the fairies. Long may it continue.