So do Black lives actually matter then?

[WeGonBeAite]

Surprised to see no conversation on one of the biggest issues in the news at present.

The one thread I have seen referencing this took the angle of the police officers dead. I did give it a quick browse, but as usual the thread was derailed and focused on proving that UK news channels poorly covered the most recent deaths and that seemed to be it!

I haven't come across any real discussion on the actual incidents and more importantly the obvious trend of police brutality on black lives.

Why?

There are protests all over the world right now, and there have been three in London over the weekend alone.

In a civilized society, uproar should not just come from a select minority, but rather from everyone!

Where is the mainstream voice? Where is the outrage? Where are the allies? Where are you?

Do Black lives not matter then?

^^ yes
Another issue is as non US dwellers our opinions can come across as patronising and irrelevant and can backfire. There was a ridiculous campaign by the Guardian to encourage Brits to write to US citizens in swing states to stop Bush becoming elected. They published some of them and it was mortifying. Lots of letterwriters with 0 self awareness writing to strangers about their atheism and love of Seinfeld.

'Claig what does the fact that the policeman is Latino have to do with it?'

I think it means that a racial aspect is less likely to be involved.

And that, Claig, is exactly why the gun control issue is such an important point in this discussion.

Any corrupt and racist police office simply needs to say they thought there was a gun, and they have a get out of jail free card. Literally.

Have you actually seen some of these videos of police brutality towards black people? There is no way that the police genuinely feared for their lives in many of these situations.

'And that, Claig, is exactly why the gun control issue is such an important point in this discussion. '

I haven't said it isn't.

'Any corrupt and racist police office simply needs to say they thought there was a gun, and they have a get out of jail free card. Literally. '

Any cop involved in this is likely to end their entire police career. I don't think they shoot people lightly.

'Have you actually seen some of these videos of police brutality towards black people? '

Yes, I have seen it and it is horrific.

All lives matter covers everyone of every colour.

To paraphrase George Orwell - all lives matter but some matter more than others.

I think it means that a racial aspect is less likely to be involved.

Dear godess of your choosing, not everyone who is not white is part of a homogeneous group of people, that includes everyone who doesn't have northern European ancestry.

Anyone of any colour can be racist about any one of any colour.

Claig has made it very clear previously that they align their viewpoint with Marie Le Pen and Nigel Farage on most points apart from Climate change. I don't think fascist viewpoints help the discussion on race in anyway.

It is far more likely to end their career if the victim is white than if they are black.

I was really hoping you would respond to my point about looking at numbers vs proportions. It seems quite central to your argument.

'I was really hoping you would respond to my point about looking at numbers vs proportions. It seems quite central to your argument.'

I didn't do it because I don't know all the facts and details and haven't looked into them. You are right that the proportion of black people shot is far higher than white people shot. I don't know why that is.

Ah, so you do concede that black people are more likely to be shot?

Trying to address why this is is exactly what BLM is all about.

Race is a clear factor that predicts a particular group of people are twice as likely to be shot and killed.

It really perplexes me that you don't see how this is a racism issue.

Yes, police brutality is way too high in the US. More than 500 people have been shot and killed by police so far this year. This is unacceptable. This is an issue about police brutality and gun control.

That black people are twice as likely to be shot and killed, this is a race issue.

There are two issues. One affects all people, both affect black people.

Therefore we need to acknowledge and deal with two issues. And one of them is very specifically about race.

I started reading this thread because op has a point, and I carried on questioning why I don't post my support when I happily do with lgbt issues (FYI there are some issues relating to trans vs feminism).

Then I realised I felt unable to, even though I care and do of course believe black lives matter. I'm not denying racism and abuse occurs specifically to black people but in this country equally to other ethnic minoroties brought here through asylum seeking etc.

I read page 2 and it made me realise why...there are so many 'whites are this' 'whites are that' that don't match up with my experience of being a 30+ white mother that I feel shut out of the debate. I am told I'm something I'm not, then expected to protest on behalf of the cause who misrepresent me.

I'm not getting any sense if 'whites are this or that'. Which posts are saying that? The gist is that there is an underlying current of racism in the police forces of America. Nowhere has anyone pointed at 'all whites'.

I'm white. I'm disgusted and outraged at what keeps happening, especially in America. It's 2016 ffs. At times it feels like we're still in the 1960s.

Saying you don't comment because you feel got at as a white woman is cowardly. White people aren't got at.

Let#s not assume that all African Americans are pro the BLM group. Far from it, in fact.

I can't copy and paste, just go back and have a read....

Feel got at? I'm not sure I understand. I feel excluded from the conversation I'm being asked to be a part of.

Fwiw I also believe it's an awful situation that shouldn't be happening. I worry it's leading to more of a segregation between white and black people as is evidenced by this thread and, anecdotally my own feelings.

I think the police in America and the U.K. need educating and that this is where the problem lies. This is where our anger should be directed.

I watched What Britain Buys last night with Mary Portas asking why high street stores don't stock more make up for dark skin tones. Such a little thing. But imagine growing up thinking you're so unimportant that there's no make up for you?

I do believe that racism exists in our society, and black people are more likely to be pulled over, stopped, harassed, discriminated against and generally made to feel as though they're not quite as good as the white majority. And I'm glad that this thread has got people worked up, and that there's an opportunity to post about how widespread racism is so that people who believe that white people face the same injustices can learn that no, it's not the same. Not at all. It's buying a pair shoes like Kate Middleton's that are nude but they don't look like your skin so why are they nude? That would be because the fashion industry "forgot" that nude is a lot of skin tones, not just white.

I do discuss this matter, just not here. It's been very much talked about on Facebook.

I'm part of the LGBTQIA community, disabled and a domestic abuse survivor, so my time is very full already with being vocal about these areas. I support BLM and abhor racism, and I will speak out and offer support to those speaking out, but I haven't got the strength to campaign and press the issue myself.

People need the passion, knowledge and experience to speak up effectively and I don't have enough of that to be the one starting the discussion. But I'll happily contribute what I can when others do.

This is for Claig who thought that we can't prove that the police shooting of some black men is racist. The truth about what happened before Castile was murdered.

Yes they profiled him for being black and having a wide nose. Am amazed the police officer could tell what his nose looked like from a distance. Not only was it in a distance but they would have been both in the car. They asked for his id but it would have been his girlfriend who was driving based on their siting positions in the car. Even if they had broken taillight, it would have been his girlfriend's responsibility because she was the driver not him.

Castile, the 32-year-old St. Paul, Minn., man who was shot and killed by Officer Jeronimo Yanez on July 6, and who has been the impetusss for a dozens of police protests across the country, was apparently pulled over by police because he matched the description of a robbery suspect with a “wide set nose.”
“I’m going to stop a car,” an officer says the police audio scanner, obtained by news oganizations. “I’m going to check IDs. I have reason to pull it over.”
“The two occupants just look like people that were involved in a robbery,” the officer continues. “The driver looks like one of our suspects, because of the wide set nose.”
A full minute and a half after the dispatch, another call came in: “Shots fired! Larpenteur and Fry.”
Though initial reports indicate that Castile was pulled over for a broken taillight, it appears that Castile was profiled because he matched the description of a man with a big nose.*
Castile was reportedly pulled over more than 50 times in Minnesotaaa before his deadly encounter with police.
Both Castile’s girlfriend, Diamond Reynolds, who was with Castile in the car when it was pulled over, and his uncle, Clarence Castile, weighed in on the recently released audio, which police have not commented on yet.
When asked if she heard the audio from the scanner, Reynolds said that she did, but said to 11Alivee*e, “Yes, but we didn’t fit any of the descriptions.”
Castile’s uncle, though, was more forthright: “It’s kind of hard to see flared nostrils from a car,” he said. “But I don’t think that’s any excuse to pull anyone over and then wind up dead behind that.”
He adds, “What we have to do is get my nephew buried and laid to rest in a good and honorable way. When that’s done, that’s when the fight begins. Then we’re going to start working to get serious justice.”
Police have not yet confirmed what robbery the original audio referred to.

The link the where you can find the audio of the police conversation with each other. *
http://www.theroot.com/articles/news/2016/07/philando-castile-pulled-over-because-he-matchedd* description-of-suspect-with-wide-set-nose-shots-fired-less-than-2-minutes-later//*

Strawberry If you feel excluded, you may need to read to full thread and lower your defence mechanism. I'm not saying that to be inflamitory, I'm saying it because TS been said more than once on this thread that all opinions are valid because it is a human rights issue. It has been said that if you are unclear on something as white person who may not fully understand the struggle, just ask.

Nobody is excluded, that would counteract the entire arguement. If you have an opinion, don't be afraid to have it challeneged, debate is healthy.

Regarding Philandro Castile and the officer that shot him being Latino, can we please just be clear on this. It is not simply a matter of individual bias, that is one layer of it. It is an all encompassing issue of structural and institutional racism. Yes the police officer may be Latino and yes he may be a racist individual but it may also be the case that he's not. What we do know is that the system he works in trains him to react to black men with unwarranted fear and he is taught to react to that fear with unnecessary force. This cannot be denied.

Would it not be a lot more productive for those who campaign for BLM to actually campaign for the one thing that would make a difference. ie banning guns.

So even if a racist cop stops someone based on their race the danger of being shot would be zero.

Sometimes its harder to get incensed about the problem when both sides refuse to put down the weapons that are causing the deaths.

Would it not be a lot more productive for those who campaign for BLM to actually campaign for the one thing that would make a difference. ie banning guns.

Dealing with the lack of gun control would address a wide range of issues in the US, and absolutely needs to be done. I agree that this would make a huge difference, but it would only address part of the problem.

Yes, black people, and people more generally, would be less likely to die, but it wouldn't address black people also being disproportionately targeted for traffic stops, searches, etc.

There is systematic racism beyond gun deaths.

Sorry OP I don't know any forums. I was thinking more along the lines of a political campaign, letters to MP's that might want to be voices on this.

I agree targeting the police or banning guns will not get to the root cause of this. The root cause is society. Society needs to change.

I think the wording of the BLM campaign may need to change. Black Lives Matter as well, too. But I don't see why people cannot get this. Black Lives Matter does not mean that other lives do not. To say all lives matter, is just missing the point completley.