So do Black lives actually matter then?

[WeGonBeAite]

Surprised to see no conversation on one of the biggest issues in the news at present.

The one thread I have seen referencing this took the angle of the police officers dead. I did give it a quick browse, but as usual the thread was derailed and focused on proving that UK news channels poorly covered the most recent deaths and that seemed to be it!

I haven't come across any real discussion on the actual incidents and more importantly the obvious trend of police brutality on black lives.

Why?

There are protests all over the world right now, and there have been three in London over the weekend alone.

In a civilized society, uproar should not just come from a select minority, but rather from everyone!

Where is the mainstream voice? Where is the outrage? Where are the allies? Where are you?

Do Black lives not matter then?

All people would be a lot less likely to die in general, in that scenario Team. Proportionally, (and obviously I agree that one is too many, as in the latest case - totally disgraceful and inexcusable) an innocent, compliant black person, in a stop and search scenario, is still very unlikely indeed to be killed by the Police. They are however, far and away more likely to be killed by another black person.

Are there any stats on the number of deaths caused by white cops on black people and black cops on white people?

LostQueen The policeman who killed Walter Scott is going on trial in October, charged with murder, (Wikipedia). And deservedly, clearly a horrific case. Have I missed something regarding the justice system protecting him?

Not that I l know of. I do know that the claim that there are vast, ever growing numbers of innocent black people being killed by the police in America, is just not statistically true.

Could it be possible very vocal minorities are making the issue seem proportionally larger than it actually is?

Of course you'd be right. Loud on this and very quiet indeed on the enormous numbers of Black people (including small children) sent to Morgues all over America by their fellow Black men. No grandiose Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson speeches over them it seems...

Neither are they acknowledged by the BLM lot either. Apparently only the White Police officers really have the power to make everything better, once they change their practices that is!!!

The other types of racist that I remember coming across in London are those that say "you are the exception" then give whatever reason why after you have pulled them up on their racist comment. As in, "but your not like all black people".

There are those who are OK being friends with black people as long as you one does not come along to "dirty the bloodline".

I do think the uk is tolerant as a whole , but it does not mean accepting. The same way you find people who are ok with gay people but would prefer if their son or daughter wasn't. To me that makes you a homophobe. It's a similar line of thinking with racist that you have in the uk.

I think, to be honest, this would have been more widely discussed on MN had the referendum not happened. Rightly or wrongly we are completely consumed by the enormity of what is happening politically here, right now.

Sorry, my last post belongs to anther thread. 😱

Black lives matter comes about as a result of the fact that nearly 150 years ago slavery was banned but the mentality that drove it wasn't.

It is not necessarily that other peoples lives don't matter - it is just that in relation to this issue, black people are being persecuted unnecessarily.

I think as white people, we live in a white world where most things are relatively easy for us and it is difficult to appreciate what it is like to feel oppressed and it is easy not to notice things that we don't want to.

I am black and this is why I will never visit the us the issue is thus

The police are like military in some states

The police often use exsssive force as if in a movie

Because they have a gun they often don't have de essulation skills

And also because all police officers carry guns and they don't discriminate between those officers that have the physiological profile to be able to carry a gun ect in the uk I believe if you have the wrong profile or have displine on your records yu are disqualified from entering the armed unit

In simple terms if your a nut or a Maverick you don't get a fucking gun

please my other half was very nervous travelling to the US, him and another mixed race guy were pulled aside and given extra briefings on what to do. My DP said " he hadn't survived tours of Afghanistan to be shot on US soil" he complied with every instruction from police and luckily came away unscathed.

Him and the other guy in his unit will now decline any training opportunities in the US as they are concerned about the current climate.

I read this BBC magazine thing the other day and having read through this thread I keep thinking about it, especially the bit written by the former US police officer.

I have been a UK police officer for 10 yrs (currently on career break) in two forces, a very mixed city with high BME and a very rural force with a smattering of BME.

I truly believe that I have never met an overtly racist police officer. I have never heard anyone say anything outrageous such as 'Oh let's just stop them cos they're black' or anything remotely like that.
I accept that the numbers of black people (predominantly young men I imagine) subjected to stop and search are much larger than young white men.
I am sad to have to consider that this is because all police officers are racist who truly think it's worth stopping black lads 'just because'.

I can only end by saying that being a police officer is scary. I can understand that if you give a young man a gun and tell him to be careful, give him 120 hrs of firearms and self defence training but only 8hrs of conflict resolution training, then he's going to be scared and twitchy and not able to confidently speak to someone and 'talk them down' - then there's no surprise that with the huge numbers of guns over there, that you meet someone and if you have a heightened sense of fear then you will have a very real reason to get your gun out.

It's very very sad, I'm so pleased we don't have a similar gun culture over here (although it is ridiculously easy to get hold of a gun, you can hire them by the hour for a few hundred) although knives are more prevalent.
Black lives do matter.

On a side note, I 'like' a number of FB cop groups and have seen a few 'Blue lives matter' memes over the last few days, it makes me very uncomfortable. Police officers don't need their own movement to promote equality and justice for their own. We are not a marginalised and unheard voice, ffs.

are not a marginalised and unheard voice, ffs No they are not, but may i ask you, would you like to have to execute search and arrest warrants in those inner-city ghettos in America where drugs and arms dealers are trading and the murder rate is, by anyone civilised standard, outrageously high?

Would you like to be the first person through the door of some address in the projects, where there are known murderers waiting for you with semi-automatics at the ready, on the other side of the of it?

Would you like to have to chase down those gun shots that pop off in the distance, in the early hours, between rival drug gangs killing each other for turf? No? Me neither.

For those reasons we need to recognise that being a Police officer in the US is an incredibly dangerous job. And in a society and environment where 50% of the murder rate is attributable to 13% of the pop' (the Black pop'), and the ubiquity of guns, then it's hardly surprising that these tragedies occur. Black people are not targeted by Police - The Police respond and react to situations that are not of their making and they are not out there for the fun of it, or for the good of their health either.

This idea that black men are “killed in disproportionate numbers” by the police is nothing but a myth. The statistics do not bear out the claims that the BLM group promote.

Great post, DontBuy - it's always good to hear from those on the front line, so to speak. I'm especially interested in your remark that Police officers don't need their own movement to promote equality and justice for their own and wonder, in light of that, how you feel about the creation of the Black Police Association?

in a society and environment where 50% of the murder rate is attributable to 13% of the pop' (the Black pop'), and the ubiquity of guns, then it's hardly surprising that these tragedies occur

Another interesting point, supersoft, though you'll no doubt get flamed for mentioning it on here I confess I wasn't aware of the percentages you mention - any chance of a link?

Supersoft I'm not really sure how your post follows mine.
I was commenting on what seemed to me to be a defensive 'what about the cops' meme when the US and the world is struggling to understand the constant killing of armed and unarmed, perhaps some necessary and many unnecessary, black people.

I have already explained that it's scary being a police officer and that I understand how a lot of these situations can escalate.

I have covered inner city gang areas. I don't need to give a list of examples of things I have done or witnessed to show my understanding of why being a US police officer is an 'incredibly dangerous job'
I can tell you it's fucking scary going to reports of gunshots, murders, stabbings, violent disorders including swords and machetes etc with a 3' long collapsible stick and some spray that doesn't work 90% of the time and no gun.

how you feel about the creation of the Black Police Association?
That's a great thing because there are nowhere near enough BME officers in the police, certainly not enough to be representative of our communities, which is exactly what we are supposed to be.
We need to recruit more BME officers and retain them and so until there are more representative numbers I think we should be doing more to address that.

What I meant in my original statement is that if someone assaults, threatens, kills a police officer then almost always the public are appalled and the justice system bends over backwards to convict any suspect.
The public are not always appalled when another BME assault or death is in the news, sadly.

Thank you Puzzled, though I am just quoting the data, which come from the The U.S Bureau of Justice www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/htus8008.pdf. The FBI's stat's tell a similar story.

I aimed my post at you Dontbuy (and you haven't answered my questions BTW), because once again you've made the claim/assumption that innocent black people are dying at the hands of the Police in vast, ever growing numbers. Can you provide some data to reinforce this claim, or is your claim down to the impression you've been given? Which would be understandable in the circumstances. The reason I say that is because the BLM group have tried with some success, in politicising this subject to being one exclusively of race. They're also attempting to spin a narrative around the highly prejudiced lie that there is an entire sway of people out there for whom seeing innocent, law biding, black people gunned down in the street for no reason, by the Police, is perfectly alright?

It's undeniable that innocent Black Americans have been killed by the Police ! I believe that one is too many and that the latest in Minnesota was truly appalling and probably unjustifiable. However the statistics just do not bear out the claim that The Police are targeting black people specifically. But even if the Police officer in this case acted wrongly, (and I realise 'wrongly' sounds like a tame word to use in this context) that does not prove he did what he did out of racist intent. And even if there were evidence of racist intent, that would not indict the entire police service across the USA , who actually shoot white suspects in confrontations more often than they shoot black suspects. An extensive study by the John J College of Criminal Justice, concluded that if you're a white man in a similar confrontation / situation with the Police. you are more likely to be shot by the Police than a black man. So more white men are shot proportionally, in the street by the Police than Black men.

As I said up-thread, there are a great many African Americans who reject the BLM movement and see them primarily as deluded idiots, stoking racial tension with no understanding of how the world works and in total denial of the reality that many black communities in America face. I do wonder if these idealistic buffoons have ever stopped to think about all the Black people, (perhaps even themselves) who are alive today, thanks to the police who risk their lives daily and without complaint, in the pursuit of locking up and killing the gangsta, drug-dealing, gun wielding thugs who really are doing the killing of Black people in imense numbers?

Thank you for the very authoritative link, supersoft - there's a lot in there I have to admit I wasn't aware of, including just how much of the murder rate is down to a relatively small % of the population

I'm very much with you that even one death is too many; however it's interesting to see balance introduced to the discussion, rather than the perhaps somewhat alarmist claims from such as the BLM movement

It's actually really hard to publicly support black lives matter.

I have seen loads of blogs and ig posts this week saying we don't want white people to feel our pain and be on our side. I've seen users being roasted on ig for having an opinion that doesn't match the blacklivesmatter movement. I can understand why black people are angry at the world (how about Jewish people getting retribution money again from the US but yet black Americans get none) I understand the crabs in a barrel argument and I understand me saying I understand makes it sound like white privilege. Like it's OK cos now a white person gets it.

That 's why I don't really talk about it online as well as it being in America. Vocal black lives matter people don't want white people to be on their side.

Late to the thread a not not RE FT yet but I agree with Alis However as a white woman, I'm unsure if it is my place to be vocal about it, say on social media. I don't mean that in a dickish way, just that I don't what to offend black people by appearing to be "offended for them", as I have seen that perspective on social media quite often.

Back to it!

white privilege What on Earth is that when it's at home?

black lives matter people don't want white people to be on their side. Hardly surprising considering they're a black supremacist movement.

My school friend is black and lives in Toronto now. She is also gay. She told me that the BLM were 'a disgrace' recently at the Pride parade.

I think the London march was pretty well publicised, though? I was certainly aware of it, though perhaps that's because family members attended, I don't know.

It's a subject that gets a lot of airtime in our house. We also get hugely aerated about the Saudi women who are prisoners in their own home. I'd like to think one day that they could have a life, too.

It's a hideous world still, in many ways.

Ok I kind of wish I hadn't bothered wading through the nasty racist "all lives matter" bollocks.
I listened to Diamond Reynolds on the radio and she gave a very powerful account. Saying how she had to stay calm as she didn't want to enrage the officer further in case he also shot her. It is so sad. It's also disgusting the officer is claiming he went for his gun, from her account.
I do think US gun laws have a lot to do with this as the officer would've known the victim had a concealed carry licence and therefore likelying to have a gun.
Equally though the systemic racism in the UK is very obvious to me, the root causes and what we do about it less so.
I would be uncomfortable discussing racism as I'm white but I will try more.

supersoft a black supremacist movement.

What absolute bollocks.