Was anyone taken in by Project Utter Crap today?

[claig]

It is said there are 200 pages of it. It could probably win the Cooker Prize for Fiction. It is the sort of thing that was probably cooked up by one of the Oxbridge teams.

How dense do they think we are? They are asking us whether we want the Norway model, the Canada model or the Papa New Guinea model? All we want is out and as soon as possible!

"One backbencher said that the Remain campaign's 'Project Fear' approach had 'turned into Project Utter Cr**'. "

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3545348/Osborne-rails-dishonest-Brexit-supporters-warns-quitting-cost-family-4-300.html

You won't get any sensible facts or evidence from either side because it is not really possible to predict the future. Economist don't have a very good track record for predicting much simpler things, when you think about it.

I think the best anyone can do is judge the EU on the way it has behaved in the past and view more of the same as the likely "direction of travel." Consider you own gut feelings and priorities. The world is changing rapidly and in some ways getting more unpredictable. Would we have more security through "strength in numbers?" Or would we be better off being small and nimble?

'Europeans sell more to us than we sell to them

Not as a proportion. 44% (ONS figures) of our exports go to the EU whereas on average less than 10% of EU exports come to us. With the exception of Germany, which sends 70% of it's exports to the UK, the proportion of exports we receive from the other 26 EU countries is in the same ball park as our exports to them.'

True, but it is the economic powerhouses like Germany and France that really count and who want to keep us sweet, not the minnows like Romania etc

'It’s not clear that a Britain outside the EU would be more open to trade with the rest of the world than it is today.'

Our whole history has been one of free trade as we are an island and were a maritime power. We have the English language and a historical mindset of entrepreneuralism and trade which will flourish more once the crazy EU regulation and restrictions are removed from our ankles and when we are freed up of having to negotiate with 28 countries who don't all share our outlook before we can take action on trade.

'Much of the argument about sovereignty is false. We now live in an internationalised world & share sovereignty when it is pragmatic to do so. Our trade, our jobs, law & defences cannot be wholly within our own control. As members of NATO we give up some sovereignty because our troops are under control of the US.'

That is the spin that our Oxbridge class of servants tell us and it is a lie. We are the fifth largest economic power in the world, our influence is large and we can shape our own destiny and don't need to share our sovereignty over our laws or borders. The world is changing and is reverting to one of sovereignty again as Trump smashes the globalists and puts America First. Trump has said "NATO is obsolete", the globalists' game is up, they won't be able to restrict US sovereignty and consequentially they won't be able to tell us to restrict ours either. We will become even more powerful than we currently are because we won't have to go cap in hand a la Cameron to aks Latvia if we can control our own border anymore. We will regain control and the minnows will have to adjust to a new Trumpian world where America is First and we are not far behind. It won't be a world of wonks from Oxbridge, but of business from Manhattan and Manchester, it won't be a world of regulatory socialist servants of bankers, but of capitalist business and growth.

'
As Yanis Varoufakis says "Brexit will hasten collapse of European Union"

Yanis Varoufakis argues we should remain!!'

Absolutely, because he is a regulatory socialist, this class of academics who want to dicate to business, but just as he and his gang failed in Greece against the EU bankers, their time along with all the other socialist servants of the bankers across Europe is over. We will be in a new Trumpian world of business and growth where Goldman Sachs and the bankers no longer influence a globalist EU regulatory globalisation but where national sovereignty and manufacturing production now hold sway. It's Trump vs the globalists, it's national sovereignty versus the EU and the people versus the EU backers like the Establishment wonks, Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan.

disappoint15 wrote;
phrases like 'Oxbridge elite', 'stooges' and 'bureaucrats and bankers' in conjunction with remaining in the EU, and phrases like 'democratic', 'populist' and 'the peoples of Europe' in conjunction with Brexit does not in any way make a compelling case.

I couldn't agree more. Scapegoating is a divisive distraction. Populism may appeal directly to the emotions of the poor & uninformed but it's just the pursuit of power which stirs up hysteria, exploits crises to intensify support for their calls to immediate action & increased authority, & accuses moderate opponents of weakness or disloyalty to the nation.

ReallyTired wrote; The problem will get worse if Turkey joins the EU.

Turkey won't be joining the EU for a very long time because of the reasons I outlined in a thread yesterday copied below;

Contrary to some media reports & scaremongering by certain politicians Turkey won't be joining the EU for years, probably not in my lifetime. EU Council of Ministers (elected heads of the EU states) agreed to fast track visa liberalisation & the "readmission" of migrants in the EU to Turkey. It was also agreed to "re-energize" accession talks which were on hold, but fast tracking Turkey's membership wasn't agreed . See EU statement;

www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2015/11/29-eu-turkey-meeting-statement/

Visa liberalisation means replacing easily forged visas with more secure machine readable passports for short term travel in the Schengen area & adopting measures to combat crime (eg introducing laws & fingerprinting.) The EU criteria for visa liberalisation is set out in a "roadmap;"

ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs/what-is-new/news/news/docs/20131216-roadmap_towards_the_visa-free_regime_with_turkey_en.pdf

To join the EU Turkey must meet the conditions on democracy, justice, rights etc set out in the Copenhagen agreement. That involves completing 33 of 35 policy "chapters." Since Turkey applied to join the EEC/EU in 1987 14 chapters have been opened & only 1 of these has been provisionally closed. The conditions for EU membership are available here;

ec.europa.eu/enlargement/policy/conditions-membership/index_en.htm

Turkey won't be able to satisfy the conditions for years, if ever, & then all the existing EU states must ratify it's membership. Under both Labour & Tory governments the UK foreign policy has been to support Turkey's EU application whereas Angela Merkel has repeatedly opposed it's full membership.

STIDW, we are run by an out of touch bunch of wonks and whizzkids from Oxbridge who are really just servants of the bankers and who have handed our sovereignty over to a centralised EU run by bankers and staffed by former bankers who dictate to the people in Greece and elsewhere and ride roughshod over their democratically elected governments like Varoufakis and the sociallists who are forced to capitulate to them.

But the bankers' system is collapsing as people across Europe and now in America too have had enough and want their sovereignty back in order to implement policies that suit them and not the globalist bankers and wonks who work for them.

The genie is out of the bottle, the people have smelt freedom and they are going to end the rule of the Brussels bureaucrats who serve the banks.

Bernie is against Wall Street and the 1% rigging the system in America, and so is Trump, and the same Wall Street institutions and their EU mates run our EU bureaucrat system where wonks are royally rewarded for their service, but it is all coming to an end.

we are run by an out of touch bunch of wonks and whizzkids from Oxbridge

Claig, you do realise lots of the brexit supporters went to Oxbridge too right? Eg Michael Gove who you mentioned before? And Boris has got to be pretty much the definition of an out of touch wonk from Oxbridge. I think you probably need to separate the Oxbridge issue from the EU issue - there's not really much link there!

'Claig, you do realise lots of the brexit supporters went to Oxbridge too right?'

Yes, they are the good ones, the independent ones rather than the servants. But both sides are Oxbridge, that's how the system works or did work before Trump changes everything because the future will be one of meritocracy and business not wonks and wazzocks.

Trump says in America "we are run by losers who have never had or never created a real job in their lives" and of course it is exactly the same here for us with our Oxbridge teams. But the future will be one of business, growth, dynamism and entrepreneurial trade because that is what we will need to be able to grow as an independent nation and all our wonks and ringfenced foreign aid and all the rest of their schemes will be for the birds in our brighter future.

So how do you tell the good Oxbridge wonks from the bad Oxbridge wonks then?

'So how do you tell the good Oxbridge wonks from the bad Oxbridge wonks then?'

Years of watching them lecture us on TV. The honest, non-spinners, non-patronising ones are the good ones, and the rest are the shower that have failed us. As Trump says "out, out, out, Get 'em out", we want winners, we are sick of "losers", lackeys and servants.

Lord David Owen is on Newsnight saying that the Eurozone runs a serious risk of another crisis which will affect us. Trump and Bernie say we are in a bubble. Some of the Oxbridge teams possibly have more info (as servants) than we have as ordinary workers.

The globalists are clinging onto their failing system, all the bureaucrats and bigwigs want to hold onto their jobs, but the world is going to change bigtime as David Owen suggested to Emily Maitlis on Newsnight "what will happen to the north Atantic Free trade Area if we have a President Trump".

Of course, Oxbridge Emily Maitlis laughed at the mention of Trump, but there will be no more laughter in Goldman Sachs and JO Morgan tonight because it is the New York Primaries and Trump's new catch line is "out out out. Get 'em the hell outta here".

A guy called Tim Hunter (Scottish billionaire) was on the channel 4 news. He said there was a lot of untruths being peddled on both sides. Or guesses being put out as facts.

He is launching a free book to try to give impartial information to the public on the issue.

It can be downloaded for free on www.thehunterfoundation.co.uk.

I don't know if it is useful, but hopefully somewhat balanced and will say an opinion is simply that.

I will wander off in disbelief at the fact (or is that opinion) that Michael Gove is regarded by some as a great guy.

p.s. Doubt if the French farmers will be too sad about a brexit.

very amused to see that claig thinks her hero, multibillionaire trump, has an opinion worth a spit.

'I don't know if it is useful'

It sounded like a right load of spin to me. Tim said he didn't trust politicians, well sure.

One must always keep one's wits about one because the wonks and Oxbridge teams sometimes say similar to gain the trust of the unsuspecting.

Clicked on Tom's site and there are a couple of spin warnings immediately - large childish font for titles, often seen as a Labour wonk style strategy to make people trust what friendly Labour say.

Clicked on partners to the Foundation and immediately saw "the Clinton Foundation" and "the Scottish Government". Hmmm. Nothing about Trump.

Do you like pages 59 to 63, Claig?

'He said there was a lot of untruths being peddled on both sides. Or guesses being put out as facts.'

That immediately set my spin radar beeping. I have only seen blatant untruths and wild guesses from the Remain side. I have been through what Leave has said with a fine toothcomb and have found nothing untoward.

'Do you like pages 59 to 63, Claig?'

I will have a look, but I hope it is nothing about Gordon Brown, that would upset my sleep pattern.

"I have only seen blatant untruths and wild guesses from the Remain side"

hahahahahahahahahahahaha!

You are seriously telling us that you have never read any of Boris' numerous lies?

I don't believe you.

'You are seriously telling us that you have never read any of Boris' numerous lies?'

I have read some of his lies when he was working under the instructions of the Oxbridge teams before he joined Vote Leave, but ever since he joined Vote Leave and joined the people, no lie have I seen pass his lips.

Do you believe his lie about Coffins?

Or his lie about Teabags?

Or his lie about legislation?

A barrage of silly lies eagerly swallowed by his anti-European chums and passed around as if they were true.

OK, it looks to me like they are using the argument I have heard the Oxbridge teams on the Remain side use when lecturing us on TV i.e. don't worry, we are sovereign, because the UK Parliament can repeal the European Communities Act 1972 and then we can do whatever we like again. But this is classic Oxbridge because everyone knows that the servants would never dare because they haven't got permission and therefore we are in effect not sovereign and cannot do what we like while the European Communities Act 1972 is in force.

In practice, the only way to repeal that is to leave the EU after which it presumably ceases to apply, but the servants are doing their utmost to prevent that outcome.

Don't tell me you didn't see them

'Do you believe his lie about Coffins?

Or his lie about Teabags?

Or his lie about legislation?'

To be honest I haven't heard any of these, I haven't paid attention to him ever since he had the audacity to have a go at Trump in Oxbridge fashion. I wrote him off after that.

You are claiming not to have read this thread, then.