Was anyone taken in by Project Utter Crap today?

[claig]

It is said there are 200 pages of it. It could probably win the Cooker Prize for Fiction. It is the sort of thing that was probably cooked up by one of the Oxbridge teams.

How dense do they think we are? They are asking us whether we want the Norway model, the Canada model or the Papa New Guinea model? All we want is out and as soon as possible!

"One backbencher said that the Remain campaign's 'Project Fear' approach had 'turned into Project Utter Cr**'. "

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3545348/Osborne-rails-dishonest-Brexit-supporters-warns-quitting-cost-family-4-300.html

Alan Johnson, the Establishment Labour mouthpiece, is on BBC News now harking back to Churchill to back up his vision of a united Europe. It's over, history has moved on, this elitist planner Churchill mentality of carving out large powe blocs is over. Just as the Corbynistas toppled all the Oxbridge Establishment stooges in the Labour Party as a manifestation of people power, so too will the peoples of Europe topple the Churchillian Etonian Oxbridge bureaucrats and planners who want to pool our sovereignty with 28 countries in Europe in order to more easily manage the futures of 500 million people.

We want to manage our own future with our own news gained from social media etc rather than their top down BBC Oxbridge broadcasts telling us that Brussels is good for us and that we should be grateful and lap their laws up.

Anyone saying the EU is going to absolutely remain for the next 40/50 years in the form it currently holds or close as, must have a crystal ball. No one can guarantee that without being able to do that can they?

Change is the only constant factor in life in general. Look on an individual basis, are you in exactly the same place in every aspect that you were 20 years ago? No. It's like that with the biggers stuff too. Brexit represents change, staying in the Eu does too!

'Anyone saying the EU is going to absolutely remain for the next 40/50 years in the form it currently holds'

You just have to look at the disastrous management of these unaccountable elites over the migrant crisis and the Syrian war and Turkey etc to see that the incompetence of these elites will cause their downfall as people say surely there is a better way to manage our futures.

An out of touch clique of bureaucrats, bankers, bigwigs and politicians are incapable of managing the futures of 500 million people centrally, so we will have to return to local democracy and local sovereignty in accountable manageable units that give a proper voice to the people and rein in these arrogant know-better elites who think they are born to rule over us because they went to public school and Oxbridge and the College of Europe.

Slightly off topic but you said that China has to meet our health and safety standards.

I watched something on BBC, yesterday or Friday, mid morning. Can't remember the title now, something like FFake or Rip Off. Anyway, they tested mattress and sofa foam imported by major UK retailers from China.

All labeled as flame resistant, for the UK market. Every one they tested burned just like the furniture we used to have here in the UK in the seventies. Before we got all those health and safety standards that China has to meet.

'All labeled as flame resistant, for the UK market. Every one they tested burned just like the furniture we used to have here in the UK in the seventies'

Yes, that is most probably the fault of our authorities who are meant to do these safety checks rather than relying on TV producers to do the checks for them. We set standards and they are supposed to be enforced, if they aren't, then it is the fault of our regulators and they should be held accountable by our elected representatives.

Where there is a will, there is a way. We need good media like those TV programmes to highlight the flaws in our system that have been allowed to exist by our taxpayer funded bureaucrats, bigwigs and regulators.

We need to hold our elected representatives to account since we are all paying for the lot of them out of our taxes.

If we were to vote for "Brexit," I predict that we would spend the next year or two being asked to vote again on a somewhat sweeter deal. I don't think OUT would mean OUT. I think there would be more negotiating. More campaigning and we would have another referendum.

Who thinks the EU and the government would take NO for an answer?

Lookingagain, I fear you may be right. Didn't Boris say suggest something about that at one point?

Will the elite really be able to get away with that over the British people? I am not sure they will be able to wangle it in our democratic, populist age although I expect a lot of stooges will want to try.

Well, one way to look at it is that voting OUT is the safest thing to do. You'll just get a second bite at the cherry after an enhanced round of British negotiation.

"You'll just get a second bite at the cherry after an enhanced round of British negotiation."

That is just a made-up story circulated by people who want UK to resign from EU.

It's speculation. And not even "wild" speculation.

I saw one amusing story passed on about the EU via a client it was a list of certain official documents and other things like say literature, with a word count of each. The longest one with a owrd count of over 26,000 was an EU regulation on...cabbages. Who the hell writes 26k words about cabbages, they aren't that interesting are they?

It's like claigs point about the fire retardant furniture, some things about the EU are not working. Perhaps we can change them from within perhaps not. These are the things we might need to be asking Why? more about.

I had heard the story about the result if a Brexit being passed to further consideration and possibly a further referendum. Not sure how the government would be able to do that unless the results were extremely close etc and with a good reason, similarly if the converse happened the Brexit camp couldn't ask for a rerun either.

I saw several amusing stories passed on about the EU by Boris Johnson.

However they were all made-up lies fantasies intended to foster support among anti-Europeans. Amazing what rubbish these people will believe and pass on.

There have been stories going both ways you must admit though and how do you know which are true?

It 's all quite amusing in some ways...

The point is that this EU is no longer a trade agreement. it is going towards a federal Europe with the European parliament ruling. . Nobody signed up for this or even voted for it. That's the problem and it's why I'm voting out.

Both ways, you say? Do please show me some of the made-up stories circulated by pro-Europeans.

I'll go first
Boris lies about teabags. Boris lies about ballons. Boris lies about coffins.
www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/boris-johnson-forced-admit-eu-7612519

Boris lies about legislation. Boris lies about single currency. Boris lies about lorries.
www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/mar/23/very-interesting-boris-johnson-brexit-treasury-select-committee

Much worse is the fact that there are anti-Europeans so blinded that they greedily gobble up these stories and pass them on as if true.
www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/mar/23/very-interesting-boris-johnson-brexit-treasury-select-committee

Well bless my soul.

Sportinguista's story about cabbages. Another lie.

www.snopes.com/language/document/cabbage.asp

"I watched something on BBC, yesterday or Friday, mid morning. Can't remember the title now"

(so you won't find it easy to fact check this story)

that said Nigel Farrage was the leader of the Leave campaign, but they were hushing it up because he's such a vote-loser.

The cabbage story is a complete myth and was debunked on Radio 4's More or Less. There are currently no EU regulations regarding the sale of cabbage, if you listen to the segment. Here's the link. www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b074zy97

I think Claig might have drunk a little bit too much of the hearty mead of Olde England or perhaps our EU-free, democratically brewed real ale, judging by the slightly bizarre content of some of the posts. Endlessly repeating words and phrases like 'Oxbridge elite', 'stooges' and 'bureaucrats and bankers' in conjunction with remaining in the EU, and phrases like 'democratic', 'populist' and 'the peoples of Europe' in conjunction with Brexit does not in any way make a compelling case.

Ask yourself:

1. Do I want to be in every closer political union? (This is an absolute necessity for Eurozone members or the monetary union will collapse. How will you feel about paying full dues to the EU while on the periphery?)

1. Did I like their response to the financial crisis? Did they move with alacrity? Were they competent? What did it say about their values?

1. Did I think they made the right call by staying out of Lybia and Syria? (Tough ones, I don't know if there was a "right" answer.)

1. Do I like the way the migration crisis is being handled? What does it say about EU values? Where do I think this is headed?

Thinking about how the EU is operating on these big actual issues is far more illuminating than parsing over speculative documents about where the economy may or may not be in 5 to 10 years. Economists never forecast that stuff correctly anyway.

No wrong or right answers. Just a choice.

looking i agree on second deal, without dboutb

"Project utter crap" sounds about right. Economic models work by plugging a lot of assumptions into a model and churning out the results. If the assumptions are based on marginal changes to static reality they may have a limited degree of accuracy. Otherwise "assumption" is just a fancy word for "guess" and the old adage "garbage in garbage out" applies.

Someone up thread mentioned Scotland. "Project Fear" produced to the pence projections for that too and within months the oil price made them look like complete mince (the fall in the oil price would not change the decision for most Scots I know) . Also promised a strong union if there was a NO vote and then promptly passed EVEL and agreed the Smith Commission. Nothing stable about the current arrangement or the notions of financial independence.

Sovereignty is the issue for me and everything else is just noise. As long as Germany is dictating terms to Greece et al and making unilateral decisions on the migrant crisis I do not want those decisions to be made in my name.

The problem if we stay is, there is a hard hard left strata running through EU and elements in our government, that want united states of europe, if we dont get out, they will simply push and push and push until their objectives are achieved.

As long as Germany is dictating terms to Greece et al and making unilateral decisions on the migrant crisis I do not want those decisions to be made in my name

As reckless and bad as Merkels behaviour was last year, its got a whole lot worse, now she is pandering to Ergodan.

Excellent and pertinent questions Looking

The people who initiated the European movement had just lived through the greatest war the world had ever seen. The older ones had also lived through the second greatest war the world has ever seen. Nothing was more important to them than preventing a recurrence, and drawing the peoples of Europe together so much that wars between them would become unthinkable.

The people in Western Europe who are alive today have mostly escaped that terrible scourge. Some of them take it for granted and attach no value to it.