Was anyone taken in by Project Utter Crap today?

[claig]

It is said there are 200 pages of it. It could probably win the Cooker Prize for Fiction. It is the sort of thing that was probably cooked up by one of the Oxbridge teams.

How dense do they think we are? They are asking us whether we want the Norway model, the Canada model or the Papa New Guinea model? All we want is out and as soon as possible!

"One backbencher said that the Remain campaign's 'Project Fear' approach had 'turned into Project Utter Cr**'. "

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3545348/Osborne-rails-dishonest-Brexit-supporters-warns-quitting-cost-family-4-300.html

"No Mr Delors, we ain't gonna take it anymore, we want to make our own law, whaddya take us for, we know the score, we are for democracy and liberty to our very core"

I wonder if the people who want UK to resign from the EU will ever agree what model they want to achieve?

Or are they just blindly hoping that things will somehow work out "better" without telling us what they think it will be?

I am "British people", claig

'I wonder if the people who want UK to resign from the EU will ever agree what model they want to achieve?'

When they made the United Kingdom, they threw away the mold. We don't follow models, we set goals and targets, we create our own future just like we have always done in the past. We want to achieve our own sovereignty to create our own laws and our own future in a country ruled by the people and not by unnacountable bureaucrats and bankers who set our laws for us without as much as a by your leave, that is why we are going to leave - leave them to it in their sinking ship as we sail the seven seas and trade with the world as we always did in the past.

'I am "British people", claig'

Of course you are, but there is a divide among the British people now and we will see which side will win.

You are with Jeremy Clarkson, David Cameron, George Osborne and the Establishment. Many others are with the people who have for so long been denied their say and their voice while they had to "suck up" what the Brussels bureaucrts dealt out to them. It's not long now, we will see which side wins.

We've got Ian Botham, Michael Caine and Michael Gove and many more great people. They have got the luvvies and the wonks. They are desperate as the witching hour draws near, their tricks, spells and spin are falling on deaf ears as the people party like it's 1999 all over again as our liberty draws near and all they can counter us with is Project Fear and its variant Project Utter Crap.

I'm not seeing vision on either side at the moment. There is going to be change over the medium long term on both options, nothing stays static, history proves that. We are at a point where we are being asked to make a choice, we need to know likely medium long term possibilities and make a decision based on that. Whatever decision is made we will have to work with whatever consequences happen - good and bad. There is likely to be a mix of both in each option. We cannot at that point have regrets - we need to work with what we choose and make it work.

Piglet John they could tell us what they think it will be on both sides, but longterm there are no absolutes. They could say that we will all remain in the EU it will expand and become a better trading group withe wealth growth and better chances for all, but a fluke event could happen and wars could break out within Europe and then that projection would have been wrong. I'd love a crystal ball which would show me exactly what is going to happen if we choose each option, but I don't have that. I can however look at the facts of now and the things we know are likely events (more countries are due for accession, possible companies leaving) and weigh up what MIGHT happen. The thing people are also looking at is how their lives are personally (what impacts being in the EU currently has, what impacts being out might have) and making a decision based on what they think will give them the best chance of prospering.

Project Utter Crap, just another slap, their latest tricky trap, but failing, flailing, a total flop which is why their wonks are in a flap as they spew their spin and crap.

All the stupid racists, and the guffawing anti French public school Tossers want out. Sensible in, mentals out.

Thanks for erudite analysis

" We don't follow models"

So you want us to follow you in resigning from the EU without knowing what you are proposing as an alternative.

If anything.

Maybe the kippers have something in mind that is different from what the govers want.

Maybe the kippers have something in mind that is different from what the govers want.

Almost certainly true!

'So you want us to follow you in resigning from the EU without knowing what you are proposing as an alternative.'

We are proposing regaining our sovereignty in order that our people are sovereign and can create their own laws via representatives that we elect and reject as opposed to a bunch of wining, dining unnaccountable bureaucrats in Brussels who make laws without us having any say.

We are the fifth largest economy in the world. The EU will have to do deals that accommodate us, we have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

'mmm, Ian Botham, Nigel Farrage and Boris Johnson.

Now there's a dream team to follow!

Piglet John, can you tell me with a good degree of certainty where the EU will be in 10 or 20 years time, how much will it have changed or not etc?

You can't tell me where a separated rUK would be in two years, never mind ten or twenty.

Claig optimistically thinks "The EU will have to do deals that accommodate us"

and not "The UK will have to do deals that accommodate the EU."

Remember that the UK trade with the EU is a much, much bigger proportion of UK trade, than EU's trade with UK is of total EU trade.

Especially our financial services sector, which is bigger than our entire manufacturing sector. There is zero chance that a country outside the EU will be permitted to sell these services into the EU unless it agrees to obey EU regulations. But a country outside the EU has no voice in framing these regulations.

No, I can't but I'm not arguing for that either! Quite honestly I'm on the fence but it does make me smile when people are so vociferous about options they can't give any projections for and often do talk about them as if they were certainties and set in stone. The fact is that things are capable of changing sometimes very quickly. It's amusing the slanging that goes on about it. It's all down to personal focus in a large part as well.

As Yanis Varoufakis says

"Brexit will hasten collapse of European Union"

yanisvaroufakis.eu/2016/03/04/brexit-will-hasten-collapse-of-european-union/

You won't have to worry about deals etc because the bigwigs' house of cards is going to collapse and countries will have to revert to one-to-one deals again. They have circled the wagons but it is the bigwigs' last stand, it is their Waterloo, their Battle of Little Foghorn Leghorn.

Maybe it will be a bit of both? A mix of options?

Life could all go pear shaped within the EU if lots of changes happen that we never foresaw.

I wish I did have a crystal ball and could see what would happen for each. I think I'd taunt you all with just hints!

The Latin Monetray Union collapsed in the 19th century, the Soviet Union collapsed in the 20th century and the European Union will collapse in the 21st century. These artificial, unnatural constructs created for and by elites which deny adequate democratic representation for the people are destined to collapse because they go against sovereignty, accountability, liberty and democracy.

They are a straitjacket for the benefit of bankers and bureaucrats, but the people will outsee them and regain their sovereignty in the end.

So when will England become independent of Scotland?

When will the proud kingdom of Wessex put up the borders against the Picts in the West, and the Northerners beyond Basingstoke?

That's in a way quite true, all empires have a habit of collapsing or is it more of outliving their usefulness and change happens naturally. Would it be possible that even if we did stay in that EU collapse is possible from some other quarter. Equally Brexit could be a disaster and the EU prevails and we ask to be readmitted? No one knows what will happen. We will in the end vote with our own perspectives about what is best. For example many of the blue collar workers say they will vote leave as from their perspective EU migration has had the most impact on their lives. Someone with a good job at a large banking sector employer may vote remain because it will benefit them to remain in.

Either option has the potential to be positive and negative. It may not benefit all people for each option.

'So when will England become independent of Scotland?'

I don't think it will ever happen, the ties are too close of language and culture. It is a unit that works, although more local democracy is needed so that people are gain more independence from the Westminster Oxbridge clique.

That's a bit of an odd example Wessex because those kingdoms were over 1000 years ago and the world has changed a lot. A better example is Scotland. But also within Europe you do have movements for Catalunya, Basque and even Occitan regions to have more autonomy and independence. Although some present national boundaries have been defined since the middle ages. Many boundaries were fluid as recently as the second world war and some are still in dispute. Change generally happens over time and it will continue to happen. On the whole we may kick against it but it will still happen.

'Would it be possible that even if we did stay in that EU collapse is possible from some other quarter'

Yes, I think the EU will collapse soon anyway, it is an idea whose time has outlived its usefulness. This clique of bureaucrats dictating our laws and trade deals for us goes against local democracy and the real change in the world is what is happening in America with Trump and America First. That will shake the entire world like an earthquake shakes the earth and the EU will be outdated and will collapse under the ramifications of the momentous changes and thirst for democracy and sovereignty across the planet. The bankers are on the wrong side of history, their end and time has come.