Was anyone taken in by Project Utter Crap today?

[claig]

It is said there are 200 pages of it. It could probably win the Cooker Prize for Fiction. It is the sort of thing that was probably cooked up by one of the Oxbridge teams.

How dense do they think we are? They are asking us whether we want the Norway model, the Canada model or the Papa New Guinea model? All we want is out and as soon as possible!

"One backbencher said that the Remain campaign's 'Project Fear' approach had 'turned into Project Utter Cr**'. "

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3545348/Osborne-rails-dishonest-Brexit-supporters-warns-quitting-cost-family-4-300.html

As reckless and bad as Merkels behaviour was last year, its got a whole lot worse, now she is pandering to Ergodan.

Agree. I am for that poor comedian.

Did the "European Movement" stop war in Europe or did the Marshal Plan, NATO and "Pax Americana" stop war in Europe? Serious question.

The EU was pretty slow in the former Yugoslavia and only got a wiggle on, when the USA gave up waiting and started leading.

The USA refused to jump in and try to sort things out in Syria this time, the EU did not step into the void. Now we have the biggest mass migration of people since WWII.

Piglet the very people who lived through the tail ends of that war whose parents fought in it, now are a key group in wanting us OUT you do realise that?

I read today about some patronising "talk to granny about why staying in the EU is a good thing!" Campaign today.

drawing the peoples of Europe together so much that wars between them would become unthinkable
Ironic that by taking it too far they have now started a far right movement whose numbers and strength is growing daily at an alarming rate....and an equally frightening hard left is also in play...

AFAIK, the people who initiated the European Movement thought they might be able to prevent wars between France and Germany in particular, but also those other Western European countries that joined the movement. I have not heard it suggested that they thought they could prevent wars between, say, Chile and Argentina; or Ukraine and Georgia.

Do you think otherwise?

I don't think the European movement was necessary to prevent wars between France and Germany.

The people who set it up did.

You seem to have added on an extra responsibility for the EU to become the world's policeman. I don't know why.

Returning to EU support for Greece; if the loans from Governments and from banks aren't repaid, whose pocket do you think the money comes from, if not the taxpayer?

You just have to look at the disastrous management of these unaccountable elites over the migrant crisis and the Syrian war and Turkey etc to see that the incompetence of these elites will cause

But I have no faith in our leaders either. In fact, there are no leaders.

Personally, I never felt less like voting and I'm a die-hard, regular voter in every election. I truly have no idea and it's impossible to make sense of any of it as we're not talking facts, just opinions and guesswork.

Also, if "Brexit will hasten the collapse of the EU", it does make you wonder how DC did so badly negotiating the deal. Wouldn't they be more inclined to try to keep the UK in?

You seem to have added on an extra responsibility for the EU to become the world's policeman. I don't know why.

I can't answer "why" because I didn't say it, and I don't think it.

I do think Europe should take a preservative self interest in what is happening on its borders though. Totally ignoring the situation and naval gazing hasn't worked out so well.

here you are:

"The EU was pretty slow in the former Yugoslavia ....

"Syria.... the EU did not step into the void."

Are you not saying that you think the EU has some kind of responsibility? What do you think it is responsible for? Something to do with conflicts outside the EU, it seems.

In that case yes. Yugoslavia and Syria are your border. Do you think you can live in a bubble while your neighbour's house burns?

Do you think the EU should participate in wars?

Is that mentioned in the charter or any treaty?

Does Ireland, in its capacity as a member of the EU, have a responsibility to send troops to, say, Ukraine?

Enough with the Aunt Sally stuff Piglet.

No one ever wants to participate in wars.

But you think the EU should have done something in war-torn Yugoslavia and war-torn Syria. But seemingly not in war-torn Ukraine.

What do you think it should have done, and when do you think it became an EU responsibility?

Here is my bottom line. I don't think the EU did anything to stop wars in Europe. I think the Marshall Plan and the US tax payer did all the heavy lifting on that one, frankly.

What is the purpose of the EU today? Are you keen to stay in because you think France and Germany will go to war if we don't?

'But I have no faith in our leaders either. '

Join the majority. But the thing is they are our leaders so we can sack them at election time just as the voters got rid of Edward Balls PPE Oxford and Michael Portillo etc. We can make changes, we can get rid of them and eventually put some good people in, we can't do that with the unnacountable European Brussels elite class of politicians and tools of the bankers.

'Also, if "Brexit will hasten the collapse of the EU", it does make you wonder how DC did so badly negotiating the deal. Wouldn't they be more inclined to try to keep the UK in?'

DC is a joke. He nearly lost the Scottish independence referendum for us by negotiating a bad agreement etc, he opposed Juncker and ended up with about 26 countries against him and he talked tough about a "deal" over the EU Referendum and practically got handed his tail on a plate by countries like Latvia. He is not very good unfortunately. he is Eton, Oxbridge playing an amateur game of rugger when the country needs a professional.

DC couldn't negotiate his way out of a paper bag because 28 other countries refused to play ball and hand over substantial concessions on soverejgnty because that goes against the whole plan of the EU. He was forced into the Referendum due to UKIP and Tory Party pressure and now there is no way back for the Establishment. They are hanging on for dear life and drafting luvvies by the score to bail out the sinking ship while wonks work through the night on projects like Project Utter Crap.

Looks like we will never find out what Lookingagain thinks the EU should be doing in war zones outside the EU.

Sorry not been back but now we have a cat rescue outside by firebrigade and that's MUCH more more exciting than the EU!

Oh. I was kind of hoping that the Brexit-ers, even if they didn't share a common vision, at least had their own personal ideas for the UK post-EU.

Shit.

Piglet I think the EU has to "run on its record." How you interpret its success and failures for the last 50 years is down to your own personal judgement.

I agree Looking.

After those monumental far reaching financially draining wars, who on earth had the appetite for war?

What a choice - Project Fear or Project Fantasy!

Claig wrote;

Europeans sell more to us than we sell to them

Not as a proportion. 44% (ONS figures) of our exports go to the EU whereas on average less than 10% of EU exports come to us. With the exception of Germany, which sends 70% of it's exports to the UK, the proportion of exports we receive from the other 26 EU countries is in the same ball park as our exports to them.

We would also be able to negotiate our own trade deals with China etc on a one-to-one basis that suit our own individual requirements

It’s not clear that a Britain outside the EU would be more open to trade with the rest of the world than it is today.

We are proposing regaining our sovereignty in order that our people are sovereign and can create their own laws via representatives that we elect and reject as opposed to a bunch of wining, dining unnaccountable bureaucrats in Brussels who make laws without us having any say.

Much of the argument about sovereignty is false. We now live in an internationalised world & share sovereignty when it is pragmatic to do so. Our trade, our jobs, law & defences cannot be wholly within our own control. As members of NATO we give up some sovereignty because our troops are under control of the US. Fish move around the seas & fish stocks can only be managed at an EU/international level. We only produce 50% of our food & being a member of the EU gives us access to secure supplies of food. UK retains the core aspects of souvereignty to remain an independent country.

The majority of EU laws are detailed, technical regulations needed to establish common standards in different sectors of the economy, & in particular, the single market. They do not pose a threat to our democracy , & go largely unnoticed by those who do not work in the sectors concerned.

As Yanis Varoufakis says "Brexit will hasten collapse of European Union"

Yanis Varoufakis argues we should remain!!

www.theguardian.com/world/2016/apr/05/yanis-varoufakis-why-we-must-save-the-eu

Haven't read all this yet but what's the beef against Oxbridge? I went to Cambridge many years ago now and don't really identify myself as part some some great ancients' cartel. Am I missing out?

Ps Is this the same claig that is possibly also Donald trump?

Ps I remain, as ever, in a state of brexitential crisis. I don't know what to believe or understand because nothing has been communicated with any sensible facts or evidence from either side. Basically, nobody really knows what the fuck will happen either way.

Yes, I'm the Donald Trump fan. The Oxbridge is just my sense of humour but also highlighting that most servants of the Establishment are from Oxbridge, but that doesn't mean all Oxbridge people are servants of the Establishment. Michael Gove went to Oxford and I like him, and I like Germaine Greer and she went to Oxford or Cambridge, I can't remember. There are amny more that I like who went there, but I don't like the servants who lecture the people on TV.

'Basically, nobody really knows what the fuck will happen either way. '

The EU is over anyway, Brexit will just hasten its breakup as Varoufakis has said. Nothing bad will happen if we leave because it will cause a realignment back to national sovereignty across Europe and France will follow us quickly. It will mean that all the socialist servants of the bankers will be swept out of power as they try to swim against the tide of the popular will and the French socialists etc will be kicked out and will have to realign and reframe over their years in the wilderness in order to reflect the wishes of the people once again.

Once we are out, all the madness of the out of touch elites will end because power will be devolved and the political class will have to be responsive to the people's wishes as their grand scheme will have failed and been repudiated by the public. There will be no Turkish joining of a union, because the union will be finished.