ISRAEL;WHEN WILL THE WEST DO SOMETHING... PART II

[UCM]

Here goes....

Where did you get that quote from?

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tangent [wow, you've met tony benn. what a wonderful man. very envious!]

so the solution is what? the destruction of the arab nations. not possible. israel has to get to the point of negotiating. and under the clinton administration the US had got israel to the table.

which is why US policy is intregral and crucial to middle east peace.

hezbollah does not have as it's goal the destruction of the israeli state, they have NEVER stated this. they are a resistance movement formed in 1982 in reaction to the last Israeli invasion. this simplistic war against evil nonsense is just totally unhelpful, like equating Iran with North Korea, it's ridiculous.

Yes sophable, this is the only way forward. But it's looking pretty hopeless ATM. We'll have to wait and see if Israel resumes attacks after this 48hr period.

the unfortunate (tragic) truth though is that your views are echoed by most Americans.

Wow! That means you somehow found a way to poll 150m+ people?! I'm impressed. B/c there's 300m living there and to make a statement about how 'most' of them feel would be to know the sentiments of at least 150m!

I'm American - and now British, too! - and I certainly wouldn't ever be in a position to say what 'most' of my countrymen feel.

and israel have done EXACTLY what hezbollah have wanted them to, and now hezbollah are winning. you cannot argue this as a victory for the israelis. they have played into hezbollahs' hands.

i'm praying for a decent regime change in the US and that the middle east hasn't totally self destructed by then. either that or a great and imaginative israeli leader to see that policy needs to change as a matter of urgency.

expat here's one for you.

majority currently feel israel's response about right, or that israel hasn't gone far enough

that's not a big poll, soph.

sorry, but i'm very hesistant to buy sweeping statements about such a huge and populated place from people who haven't lived there firsthand, in at least several different places.

i certainly wouldn't presume to make such statements about brits, assuming my limited knowledge of them.

it's sad to see all discussions on here about this topic always falling into the trap of 'israel wants to kill civilians' and other such generalisations.

and this whole business of 'well, i'm separating the inhabitants from their government'. that's like the ol' 'well, i'm going to spew this horrid stereotype, but of course, it doesn't apply to you. you're different from other [insert race, creed, etc.]'

argh. expat. i'm not making a sweeping generalisation. i'm asking if israel's intention is NOT to kill civilians why they would use intimidatory tactics in gaza and cluster bombs in the lebanon.

are you being deliberately obtuse over this because the way i argue pisses you off. surely surely you can see where i'm coming from.

as for the poll...evidently you don't believe in them. but again are you being deliberately obtuse? there is a whole raft of reasons that most americans would feel like this and i'm not arguing those that do are evil. the climate of fear engendered by the media in the states post 9-11 is in large part responsible.

i'm very very frustrated by your attitude to this. fence sitting in terms of what israel is currently doing in the middle east doesn't in the long run actually do israel any favours imo.

expat if any other country did this there would be hell to pay. There would be sanctions and other repercussions.

SIX different polls on that link btw. all saying the same thing. like a say, evidently you don't believe in polls.

\link{http://www.belgraviadispatch.com/2006/07/post_36.html\i strongly recommend reading this it is a very good piece.

incidentally expat, i didn't see you leaping down lisalisa's throat when she made the sweeping generalisation equating hezbollah, hamas and the PLO.

i guess your need for posters to keep to specifics and be reasoned and fair has it's limits.

here it is and now that im just talking to myself here, i think i'll go to bed!

night soph - just seen that UN buildings have been attacked in Gaza and Lebanon. This is all fuelling hatred for the West among Palestinians and Lebanese and probably further afield.

Blimey Lisa I've just read this from you "It is a struggle to the death I'm afraid as the arab nations will never - I repeat- never allowe Israel to co exist peacefully in their midst."

A struggle to the death? So that's the solution? The death of either the Arab nations or Israeli nation? Surely you don't have such a nihilistic view of the world? I hope that's not representative of the views of the majority of people in that region, because if it is, I guess we're in for a hell of a long haul with pointless brutality on both sides for at least our lifetimes and well beyond.

This interesting link explains the blind support for Israel from Jews. It is written by a Jewish American Professor:

Muslims and Jews: Common Ground

For me, Israel's inhumanity has been rationalised far too long, and both Jews & Muslims do need to look at new ways to address each other's perceptions, and to educate themselves out of their own cul-de-sacs.

lisa, the Quran does not say what you have quoted. That is in a Hadith, but to interpret it as hatred of Jews would be quite wrong. It refers to the battles before the end of times, All the Abrahamic religions are agreed that in those times the Earth would be inhabited by the worst of mankind. If it were a reflection of hatred for the Jews, they would have suffered a lot under Muslim rule.

Israeli spokesman on Today said that Hezbollah were firing rockets from the building in Qana and that they had no idea there were civilians in it.

Of course he would say that...wonder if they have any pictures to prove it...

Are Hezbollah deliberately putting Lebanese civilians at risk ("human shields") by firing rockets from places where they are? (If so how come they're not being killed, or do they shoot and run?)

what annoyed me about it was that the reason they didn't know civilians were in the building was because (as one spokesman put it anyway) Israel had warned everyone in the whole town to leave. That wound me up for half of yesterday actually - I doubt everyone would have been able to leave even if Israel hadn't bombed most of the roads.

Anyway the human sheild thing: it might have been deliberate. I'm not sure it makes any difference to my opinion if it was though - Hizbullah are a nasty bunch. It's just pointless trying to bomb them out of existence, that's all.

I'm sure they probably are using people as human shields. But you can only do that, if someone is shelling you.

I might decide to use my next door neighbour as a human shield, but unless some fucker decides to bomb them, it won't matter. The human shield argument always seems to me, a way to avoid responsibility. If you've got your finger on a trigger, you have the choice whether to pull it or not, and whether the person you're aiming at is holding up a baby influences your choice, is down to you, not down to the bastard who is holding up the baby.

So if Hezbollah fire rockets from civilian buildings at Israeli civilians but Israel doesn't hit back, that's OK. I see. An interesting argument.

I'm not saying it's OK Jan, I'm saying everyone is responsible for their own actions.

Hezbollah is responsible for what it's doing. The Israeli army is responsible for what it's doing.