ISRAEL;WHEN WILL THE WEST DO SOMETHING... PART II

[UCM]

Here goes....

found it

So, what are the long term solution, beyond an immediate cease fire? As I understand it, Bush is not supporting the cease fire because he wants longer term solutions and not a quick fix that won't last. I suppose I see his point that long term solutions are needed, but I'm not sure that needs to replace an immediate ceasefire...

Not sure if anyone is that bothered about doing anything - Bush is a complete jerk IMO and with Tony Blair allowing bombs to stop here on the way to Israel he is opening us up to another terrorist attack.

Israel act like a child who was bullied at school - they were persecuted and a horrendous atrocity was visited on their people so now they think they have to be the first to get in with the punches and always make sure they knock the agressor on their back!!!

Well, luckily we have got the UN. They always get things done. A room full of men in suits eating cakes and spending a whole day discussing how to phrase one little statement regarding the killings of the UN observers. I mean, what would we do without them?

Getting all the elected parties onto a discussion front would be a hell of a start.
But...

ANY solution needs to involve compromise on both sides. Which is going to be a tough nut to crack, given Israel's policy of no negotiation w/groups it consideres terrorist, and the other side's insistance that Jews get out entirely.

I haven't read most of the messages but my view is that there is hyprocrisy and misdeeds on both sides. People seem to forget that Christian as well as Muslim Lebanese are suffering and it irritates immensely when the arguments are centred on Muslims V Jews. IMO,far too many Muslims and their apologists use the plight of the Palestinians as a rallying call to hate the State of Israel but turn a blind eye to the abuse of the Kurds by their fellow Muslims in Iran, Iraq, Turkey etc. Arafat started out as a freedom fighter for the Palestinians but in the end, even his own people isolated him because of corruption. Muslim Arabs are slaughtering black Africans in Darfur, Shites and Sunni Muslims are butchering each other in Iraq and so on.

The Israelis have a right to defend their borders but they do not have the right to slaughter innocent Palestinian and Lebanese civilians which they have been doing for so many years. The question of where Israels' borders actually lie is one of the main drivers for the continuing violence and it is going to take a brave grown up from both sides to say it is time to talk and sort it out once and for all. However, the Middle Eastern countries have to accept that Israel has the right to exist and Israel has to accept that the Palestianins have a right to their own land. That's my view anyway.

They have to get together with a really neutral observer (definitely not the US) - EU reps perhaps, and then go through every little thing point by point.

The problem I see is that both sides want control of Jerusalem so perhaps there should be a joint committee of Muslims, Jews and Christians in charge of their own Holy Sites there. Possible? Probably not.

Israel is also holding prisoners without trial so they have to either try or release them. They also have to think about reparations for the land that was taken - when India was partitioned there was a scheme to give migrating people land/money equivalent to what they had lost. previously. They need to compensate the families of innocent people who have been killed and wounded in "collateral damage" since Israel was created. They also need to abide by UN resolutions and stop building settlements. People who have settled illegally in these places need to move. Any of this likely? Probably not.

The Palestinians need to call a halt to all terrorist activity and agree to co-exist peacefully with Israel. I think they will have to give up on some of their border demands. Possible? Who knows.

But one thing that does worry me is that even if a peace plan is ever agreed on, there is no reason why Israel, with it's huge arsenal and US-aided army will not seek to expand its borders.

has anyone read the latest on the BBC website? 40 - 50 civilians killed by Israel. They were sheltering in apartment buildings. Israel had ' warned them to flee' but they couldn't as they were too scared plus the roads and transport systems have been destroyed.

The ranks of Hezbollah and Al Q'aeda are looking better each day.Until Israel grasps that they cannot bomb and kill their way to peace they will never, ever be able to rest and they will always be hated by much of the world, as they are now.

I can't do links but just read it and weep.

i haven't been on this thread, and don't know the ins and outs too much, but the news this morning has been sickening tbh

20 of them children. I feel sick too and very

I don't see why Fairymum is so upset. They're only Arabs after all
Imagine the saturation coverage we'd get if they were Israeli kids.
If this number of Israelis were killed, we'd have follow up coverage for weeks, and ayhear later we'd be treated to anniversary coverage.
But the media will forget about these deaths by Wednesday.
Israel has learned that it may murder and torture people at will, and the more it does it the more help it will get from the US and UK.

The media may forget DC but I'm not so sure that the public are going to forget this episode so easily.

here is the BBC's article on it.

Shock horror, I agree with Dominiconnor on this. I think it's too optimistic to say that people won't forget it Carmenere - Israel has done this before, and people have forgotten. (In fact, didn't they bomb the same village before?)

Even if people don't forget, so what? I'm pretty sure that if you took a poll of the British people today, they would say htat Blair should be calling for an immediate ceasefire and should be condemning Israel's actions. But he won't do that. So what does it matter what we think?

As Caligula says, we'll forget about this.
When you come to vote in the next election, will you take it into account ?
History says otherwise.
British people vote almost entirely on their expectation of which party will make them richer.
Thus Blair can ally Britain to a dumb evangelical, appoint an leading member of a paedophile cult to a post where she could let more sex offenders into schools. His party can accept million quid bribes for the tobacco industry, and his ministers can be found to have comitted fraud.
Yet he wins election after election because no one really bleieves the tories have a better idea on how to run the economy, and because Cameron can't think of a more vile immigation policy unless he's prepared to have them gassed.

Well I changed my vote last time around because of the whole Iraq thing, so some people obviously do take it into account! But it has to gbe only a part of the picture... it would be senseless to vote based on world affairs and ignore matters at home too. And I finally got round to e0mailing the local Stop The War people today- too late for their march last week (I was away anyway) but the best I could do.

Uwila you're right- a long term solution IS needed but right now a ceasefire is essential and Bush's focus should be on that, as that will save childrens lives. But then his ocuntry is presumably making extra money from bomb exports atm, so he's not going to listen is he?

Blair's reaction has disguisted me, though good on Jack Straw for having his say- sisn't know he had it in him.

Eh? Wots this about a paedophile cult? Do elaborate, DC.

TBH even if people did take it into account in their voting, as none of the parties would ultimately ever stand up and say that Israel should be forced to comply with the UN resolutions which call upon them to withdraw from the occupied territories, it would make no difference. When it comes to Israel and America, no UK government will ever deviate from the party line - a UK PM will do exactly as s/he is told (by the USA) when it comes to Israel. Hence (in part) the dangerous and divisive calls for a muslim parliament (although of course Israel is not the only issue around that one).

I was a bit gobsmacked when Bush said "we're going to re-build Lebanese houses".

Which American construction company, I wonder? Of is that me just being very cynical?

"Nice" to see the first shipment of US aid going into Beirut yesterday. Whilst yet more bombs were delivered to Israel... Can't call Bush anything but fair, huh?

Not an anti-US diatribe, BTW. Equally appalled by TB's stance on this which is, in my opinion, the most shameful thing he has done to date. Shame on him - and shame on the British poplulace for electing him. So much for New Labour's "ethical" foreign policy.

Caligula, he means Opus Dei- an ultra Catholic organisation of which Ruth kelly is indeed a a member.

And Opus Dei would be a paedophile cult then?

I know they're a bunch of loony catholics, but I don't know about beng a paedophile cult. Like any organisation, it may have paedophiles in it, but that doesn't make it a paedophile cult, any more than the Scout movement. But heyho, anti-catholic sentiment is perfectly acceptable, no-one's going to jump up and down in horror.

DP is in central London at the moment, watching / joining in a demonstration by Hasidic Jews against the 'Zionist terrorism'. Last time he called me to share the experience, the chap on the loudhailer was shouting 'We are all Hezbollah!'

Now, I know my DD could do a better job than the callous & dimwitted Bush & Blair, but there's no denying it's complicated!

That's interesting Beetle. I remember reading a while ago about a very devout Jewish sect (for want of a better word) which didn't agree with the creation of Israel.

A plane is stopping at Prestwick today[TO REFUEL] carrying weapons from the USA for Israel...so slightly! hypocritical for Blair to be calling for a ceasefire!