Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
News

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Original poster

ISRAEL;WHEN WILL THE WEST DO SOMETHING... PART II

750 replies

UCM · 27/07/2006 23:53

Here goes....

OP posts:
bubble99 · 09/08/2006 21:41

Thanks, mimo, I'd always assumed that most of the funding came from Irish Americans. Were the governments Democrats or Republicans?

PifflinePankhurst · 09/08/2006 21:42

Yes Bubble they would have attacked, they immediately stated their aim to annihilate Hizbollah, refusing to negotiate a prisoner swap deal.

hub2dee · 09/08/2006 21:43

bubbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb ! X

SP - Yes, there were published statements of regreat from Israel re: Qana - BBC report here and one from the Jerusalem post here .

mimo - Yes, it's hard to figure out what exactly is the truth and what is propaganda from both sides. I am glad you are so confident of what Hizbollah vows it will do vs. what it can do ! I share absolutely no such conviction. However simple their rockets may be, they seem to have been sophisticated enough to fly, land and explode fatally.

Re: one mistake but not repeatedly - I take your point, but I have not seen a single statement of regret or apology from Hizbollah / Hamas in this conflict, nor indeed after any of the suicide bombs where children or teenagers have been killed in Israel in suicide bombs the last n years. Their are parents grieving their too for children, and the attcks do indeed continue repeatedly, week after week, year after year.

piff - Is all the fuss over Iran's enrichment program just a red herring then ? Also - re: translations - I posted what I found about the stain (Israel) being made to vanish. It can be twisted to a certain degree, but not an awful lot ! The intention was clear (my post on it is here and fuzzy posted the link to the text a little earlier.

Re: amassing at border etc. before conflict - perhpas Israel just got a little sick of having rockets lobbed at them every now and then !

bubble99 · 09/08/2006 21:43

From a PR point of view, I imagine that neither side would want to fire the first shot.

mimoyello · 09/08/2006 21:44

bubble - the Kennedys (Democrats) are the ones most quoted as having done so. I am not very good on US politics vis a vis IRA, may be someone else has more know how on this ?

bubble99 · 09/08/2006 21:48

I can see the Kennedy/Irish connection clearly!

I imagine 9/11 had a major negative impact on IRA funding.

PifflinePankhurst · 09/08/2006 21:50

I have no affection for Hizbollahs methods of problem solving Hub
But I have more disdain for Israels methods, given the desperate treatment of the Paletinians. So while not supporting their methods of warfare, I certainly understand why they feel the need to fight.

Irans enrichment programme, well I must confess to shag all real knowlege about the actual advances of it thus far... But when I read recently that Russia had said it could handle the enrichement process securely for them I nearly wet myself - take yourself back 30 years and imagine!
What they make and how far they get?
I think they are using it to lever trade gains, to bend the West over a hot stick - control if you will.
But I have an issue with countries controlling who can and cannot have nukes.
Why does anyoen need them
As a deterrent?
Well GWB stated Al Qaeda as the most dangerous threat facing the USA. Yet the nukes the US hold, surely never deterred anyone...

I'm sure had Iran been in a position to want to blow Israel off the map, this current conflict offers them more than ample opportunity to intercede one could think?

PifflinePankhurst · 09/08/2006 21:51

And a little glibly...
If Israel are sick of rockets being lobbed at them so frequently, perhaps they should stop offering so many reasons for others to want to lob rockets at them?

mimoyello · 09/08/2006 21:53

hub - I am not that confident about Hizbollah statements, I am just stating FACTS re. their military arsenal !

It's like a bunch of Palestinan school kids lobbing rocks at Israeli tanks. Every now and then it will hit an Israeli soldier in the head, but the effect is not total destruction of the Israeli army, is it ? Some stone throwers also hate Israel and tell each other they want it destroyed, but can they actually do it ? I doubt it.

We come back to my point about CAPABILITY and political clout again. One has it and the other doesn't.

mimoyello · 09/08/2006 21:57

piffle - dead right about Iran's enrichment programme. Let's just say I have it from very reliable Iranian sources (no I don't work for their secret service, I have had access to some of their officials for my work !) that Iran is no where near building a bomb. It's another Bush/Blair ploy to squeeze Iran.

bubble99 · 09/08/2006 21:58

Hizbollah have fired 200 rockets daily for the last week and they seem to have acquired some long range weapons. Are they still threatenng Tel Aviv?

mimoyello · 09/08/2006 22:00

bubble - they may well hit Tel Aviv, but it will probably be a total fluke if they do, as their rockets have absolutley no accuracy.

hub2dee · 09/08/2006 22:06

mimo - Yes, I understand their arsenal of weapons is of lower quality than the Israelis, but they are quite CAPABLE of launching them into Israel. They have been, and continue to do so ! (Think we might have our wires crossed btw, sorry if I've misunderstood your point). If you were a family living in Israel, I am really not sure you'd buy this 'it's not what they say, it's what they do, oh, and their weapons suck, so have no fear...'

(apologies for the facaetiousness). And also if I just spelt that word wrong.

hub2dee · 09/08/2006 22:07

but if it is a total fluke - would that make it any less damaging or acceptable ?

fuzzywuzzy · 09/08/2006 22:11

I should imagine Hizbollah are going to continue same as Israel.. So Israeli's have little comfort in the crappy precision of Hizbollah rockets.
The Lebanese have no comfort in the deadly precision of the Israeli weapons.

Israel has been holding Lebanese women and children indefinitely without any signs of letting them go. They're building a huge wall right across a lot of Palestinian territory, they bulldozed a whole load of Palestinian homes (a lot with the occupants stilll inside)....

I don't think it's as black and white as 'Israel are tired of having rockets lobbed at them now and then'....

mimoyello · 09/08/2006 22:13

hub - no one is saying that Israeli civilians should be happy about rockets being launched towards them. But if it were me with a child to worry about right now I would much rather be living in Israel than in Lebanon.

I sympathise with the Palestinian and Lebanese people because they are caught up in this dreadful trap of powerlessness. If I had the Israeli army to look after me, I would be much less worried.

hub2dee · 09/08/2006 22:15

It appears to be black and white though to a fair few posters on this thread, fuzzy !

FWIW - I imagine Israel will stop as soon a the UNIFIL (I think I've got that right) force turns up, functions properly and is able to stop the rocket launches.

hub2dee · 09/08/2006 22:18

I expect both sides are as worried as each other tbh. If you were in Israel, with children above 18, they could well have been called up by now !

fuzzywuzzy · 09/08/2006 22:18

I could easily say the same H2D...!!!

bubble99 · 09/08/2006 22:18

Doesn't all of this boil down to whether the State of Israel should exist? And if so, in what form? I can see no prospect of a 'Two State' solution given Hizbollah's avowed intentions.

To balance this, I can also see that the IRA had no intention of power sharing in NI and this has been achieved in the past. Martin McGuinness as education Secretary is a situation I'm sure no one could have predicted.

hub2dee · 09/08/2006 22:19

Well, I definitely see shades of grey !

mimoyello · 09/08/2006 22:19

Hub - any way, "I am out !" as the Dragons say.

I can't see this getting any further than but "Israelis are dying too" - this is not a political discussion it is becoming an excerise in getting us to have sympathy for Israeli civilians, which I think most of us already have !

Good night all

hub2dee · 09/08/2006 22:29

LOL. Love that program.

Would also love to take leave of this discussion too !

mimoyello · 09/08/2006 22:33

bubble - Israel already exists and has increased its land mass through previous wars. The point is how can one stop further Israeli incursions into neighbouring countries ?

As it stands the US and UK have no wish to stop Israel from doing what it is doing (as evidenced by the wording of their very one-sided UN resolutions). It is absurd that Iran, Syria, Hizbollah, the alleged perpetrators of mass destruction against Israel are not called into any of these discussions. The longer this marginalisation and one-sided negotiation tactics of the US goes on, the worst the situation will become.

People forget that one of the key reasons Germany was pissed off and started yet another World War is that it was totally excluded from discussions after the Armistice and humilated even further at Versaille (1919). But I doubt Bush knows what where or who Versaille is ? Moron !

bubble99 · 09/08/2006 22:42

mimo, would Israel withdrawing to it's original borders be the solution?