ISRAEL;WHEN WILL THE WEST DO SOMETHING... PART II

[UCM]

Here goes....

But Israel is a state, Hezbollah are a bunch of criminals. Do any other states sink to this level?

threads like this show me why I don't visit mumsnet much any more. Hezbollah attacked Israel -think that is being lost sight of here because of the way Israel reacted. Israelis want a place to live where they will feel safe, there are a lot of people who don't want them to have that. If arabs would accept that Israelis need somewhere to live maybe there could be reasonable discussion and compromise - but they won't, they just want to kill them all or drive them away.

Israel's response has been such an overeaction and so stupid it has lost them most of their western support. However sickening what Israel has done it is caused by the continuing refusal to accept their existence. I can't join in the general "let them all be killed" view which seems to underly this thread.

Personally I don't see any chance of the conflict being resolved. The muslim response is destabilising those communities that have managed to coexist peacefully so far. I wonder where I can dig the bunker because I don't see much hope of avoiding another world war, it's just a question of how soon it comes.

People appear to forget that actually this isn't a Muslim V Jewish conflict. Lebanon for one has a pretty significant Christian population as I would imagine Palestine must.....

Do you know that Iran actually stopped selling copies of the Da Vinci code, because of objection from it's Christian population....

Or are the lives of Arab Christians worth so little that nobody gives a damn.

And no Tatt the answer to the conflict is not as simple as the Muslims wont' let the poor Israelis exist, in peace. Didn't this current massacre being because Lebanon had captured two.or was it three Israeli soldiers on their side of the border, what were they doing there??? If it had been three Lebanese soldiers they'd have been shot and buried long ago nobody but their relatives any the wiser....

I don't think there's a "let them all be killed" view on this thread. I think the reason people aare posting is because they are so distressed about the level of killing and are discussing how it can be stopped.

I don't think it is as simple as Israeli's just wanting a safe place to live. It is way more complicated than that. I don't think anyone has taken the "let them all be killed" line tatt, unless you are referring to lisalisa's comment about a "fight to the death".

Tatt, I think most Arabs accept that Israelis need somewhere to live. But do you fancy giving them your home ?
If you resist doyou want you and your kids taken at gunpoint to a camp ?
If you resist, or happen to be near someone who resists so do you want to be tortured ?

Israel is the worst country in the Middle East, far from it. Maybe it's the least bad. Certainly I'd rather be a Moslem in Israel than in any country actually ruled by Moslems.

As for live and let live, it ain't gonna happen. Leave Israel in peace and it expands at you. Look at the "security wall".

I agree with everything you have said sophable. But you won't get lisalisa to give a millimetre here. Remember she said ' Israel is a lamb surrounded by wolves' on part 1 of this thread. That's how balanced and clear headed she is.

As for the Indie piece on Gaza on Saturday, I had to stop reading it after a while as I was too upset.What do they call it 'Operation Samson's Pillars'? What utter bastards.

Anti semetism? do me a favour and don't pull that cheating little card yet again. The most rabid racism is Israel's against all Arabs suurrounding it, plus a greed for their land at any price.

Put your glasses on some of you and face the bloody truth.

Fully agree with sophable and donnie.The papers and news this weekend made for distressing and horrific reading.Some of you need to take the blinkers off tbh.

Can't believe what those bastards have done at Qana. So angry and sad. And the way they try and justify it by saying that Hezbollah were using them as human shields and/or that all civilians should have left southern lebanon by now.
Do they have no humanity?
What happened at Qana is despicable.

Hmm, I don't think it's a question of taking blinkers off or facing up to the truth. I think I accept what you're saying donnie, that the Israeli's don't value their Arab neighbours lives as highly as their own, but I also think that they have got to this stage of paranoid lunacy (the "fight to the death" mentality) because of the history of persecution + holocaust + feeling like the embattled little nation surrounded by enemies. Peacedove's link was interesting in pointing out that it's not always the reality of the situation which determines people's attitudes and motives, but their perception of reality and one of the major problems I think, is that on both sides, it seems neither are prepared to give an inch in terms of being able to acknoweledge the fears/ grievances of the other.

And I know I'm going to be accused of America-bashing again, but that's where the offices of an outsider should come in; the USA should be trying to get Israel to see the other point of view (while someone else with more credibility in the region - who? should be getting the Arab nations to be seeing the Israeli point of view). A critical friend should be guiding Israel towards a state of being able to see where the Lebanese/ Palestinians etc. are coming from. Instead of which, the USA encourages Israel in its siege mentality and denial about the wrong that was done to the Palestinians and gives it carte blanche to behave in such a way as to ensure that the conflict goes on and on and on for generation after generation. That's not the act of a good friend, imo.

Does anyone doubt that the massacre at Qana will create a new generation of terrorists? So what long term good did it achieve?

I think that your first paragraph is utterly true and very perceptive.

As far as Israel is concerned any threat* of annihilation is taken seriously since the last time someone threatened to wipe them out they damn nearly did.

Now before I get flamed, this isn't to excuse of pardon their behaviour in any way. But unless the mind set is understood, not progress will ever be made.

So while we in the West can see the ravings of the Iranian leader as the wild threats of a man for internal consumption, the Isralis do take him seriously. Because Hitler raved and then followed through.

It doesn't excuse, but it does start to explain.

everything has to be taken back to basics if this is ever going to end

Palstine does have a Christian population, yes. Also, the idea of a Muslim - Jewish root is textually unsound as Islam traditionally recognises all 'people of the book'- ir Jews and christians- as more like kin than heathen enemies.

Hezbollah is a terrorist organisation and there is no excuse for their behaviour. but if a terrorist group causes huge atrocities, is it OK to punish the state they were committed from? Coiuld this posssibly be a way of Iran (Hezbollah being iran sponsored) distracting America et al from their doings? Just a thought.

From what I have read about Hezbollah their initial aim is to reclaim the land taken during the Israel- Palestine war, as opposed to the UN distribution (though you'd be naive to think they'd settle for that).

The notion BTW (was it Taatt?) that MN would like tos ee Israel dead.... personally, not at all. I don't want to see anybody dead, that's ythe point really. I have hug problems with Israel and the way they have behaved, but no-one deserves to die, especially a child.

MB you are right of course you are, but the Israelis could also have been supposed to have developed an empathy for innocent human death- especially those of children? And have learned in the worst way imaginable the true value of human life. They don't seem to have done this at all

PC I agree, it's totally justifiable to condemn the israeli govt without wishing to 'wipe it off the map'.

I can see what the Israel govt are trying to do (get rid of the Hezbollah threat) but I think they have just magnified the threat to their population rather than decreased it.

Did you know that hezbollah didn't exist before the Israelis invaded Lebanon in 1982?

I do't think that it is fair to somehow expect Israelis to have higher moral standards than other countries, because of the often-tragic history of Jewry, which is what some posters seem to be implying.
But nor do i think that Israel is somehow beyond criticism because of the persecution suffered by Jews in the past.
I know people who are normally quite pro-Israel, who are very disturbed by what is happening in Lebanon at the moment. At the very least, this is surely a public relations disaster for Israel. And, long term, I can't see how it will do anything other than swell the number of recruits for Hezbollah and Hamas.
BTW, how does Israel reconcile its refusal to deal with terrorists with the role played by Stern (and that other organisation whose name temporarily escapes me ) in the foundation of the state of Israel?

Caligula, I don't see how or why the USA is responsible for everything Israel does. Israel is its own country which makes it's own choices. Ok, many of the weapons come from the USA. But, it is the person who pulls the trigger not the company who manufactured the gun, who goes on trial for murder.

But Uwila Israel wouldn't be half as agressive if it didn't have the Americans backing them to the hilt all the way...

If you're looking for rogue states you need look no further Israel

What, you think they'd just sit back and do nothing if it weren't for the USA? Somehow, I doubt it.

No, I don't think they should have higher moral standards- but some level of empathy should at least counterbalance what has been done to them? And anyway, I think everyone should at least aim for exemplary moral standards- higher shouldn't even be a possibility in my idealistic world.

Have just looked at the reading list for Uni and hezbollah titles appear quite a lot- should make for an intersting year,a ll things considered.

Uwila I honestly don't think they would be attacking Lebanon right now, no.
PC your course sounds interesting, is a degree or a masters? (sorry to be nosey)

Uwila I think your gun manufacturer analogy only works if the gun manufacturer in question, has a strict policy of not selling guns to any of the enemies of the guy who has just pulled the trigger, and all the other manufacturers in town sell vastly inferior weapons nowhere near the efficacy of the first manufacturer and are also forbidden officially to sell them to the enemies of trigger-guy.

I think it ignores the reality that Israel's existence relies heavily on the support of the USA. If the USA for some reason withdrew its support, Israel's very survival would be in jeapardy. No Israeli prime minister could possibly afford to ignore anything an American president says. And yet American presidents say so little.

degree, but seriously tempted to do a masters or Phd at the end if my grades / finances allow (had planned PGCE but tempted now by more study as loving every second of it)

Glad to hear it and good luck with you studies!
Really want to do a masters too but so expensive

I know, I'll probably work PT and study PT to cover it all. Can't bear the thought of leaving Uni though, and they do several relevant masters in commutable distance from here with PhD options after

what are you studying peachyclair?