ISRAEL;WHEN WILL THE WEST DO SOMETHING... PART II

[UCM]

Here goes....

Ali
The sad truth is that most people vote w/their purse and how it is affected.

The Israelis that my h deals with seem to have the "head buried in the sand approach" nothing is happening there as far as they're concerned and at one point they couldn't understand why he didn't want to fly out there next friday

Yep you're right Expat. Maybe one day I'll run for government myself!!! Can't do any worse can I.

'the israelis want to kill civilians'

I do NOT think it helps to make sweeping generalisations like this.

About ANY nation!

Sorry, but I think that's where conflicts like this go even worse.

There are two sides - or more - to everything.

Trying to understand all these is essential to moving forward, IMO.

expat given that that's what they've doing for years i don't think i'm making a sweeping generalisation at all!

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I attended a college where there was a very high proportion of Jewish students - it used to be pretty deserted on Jewish holidays - and we had a debating society where Israel was often the subject of discussion. My experience was that many Jewish people have a massive blind spot when it comes to Israel. They cannot think or talk about it rationally or fairly.

but WHY, soph? in response to something? something they perceive as a threat?

sorry, but cynical as i am - and i think only DominiConnor has me beat in that department - making defensive statements like that is NEVER condusive to much but more negativity.

i mean, what if i came out and wrote, 'the english want to rob every place they can (scotland) of its resources'.

regardless of whether or not i think this is true, it's going to evoke NOTHING but bad sentiment.

and there's enough of that about already.

agreed saadia. and understandable in a way. but it doesn't change the facts.

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The differebce between the scouts and Catholics is that the most senior members of the Church actively assited in the rapes, their cover up, and used legal tricks and money to help the crimes.
Not the same as the random crimes any large organisation will experience. Also there is the matter of scale. No one knows the number with any accuracy, but the Catholic church itself has admitted it is more than 8,000. That's 8 thousand.

Also what would be the future of the person at the scouts (or any other organisation) who had the role of being in charge of discipline, or maintaining order ?
The Cathlic church promoted Ratzinger a "former" Nazi, who was previously referred to as the "pope's Rotweiler", for his his treatment of wayward priests was rather publicly promoted.

well...that is part of the why. the other part unfortunately is that because of the relationship with the US Israel feels untouchable. that is the bit that you left out of the equation. how many UN mandates ignored????

that is what HAS to change if there is to be any chance of peace.

B/c, lisa, you have echoed all the sentiments put forth and expressed by the Jewish people I have known - both in high school and in the years following.

That is why I reacted as I did to blanket statements about the conflict there.

My native city has a large Jewish population, and it was a bit of a shock to come here and see that lacking.

From my study of medieval European history, I learned a bit about how Judaism was handled in Europe in the past, and this, too, sowed the seeds of the modern day state we call Israel.

Even just the study of this history goes to show this is a complex issue, and so again, I object to blanket statements being made about ANY one nation or ethnicity or religion.

but expat, this latest attack is so typical. Israel wants to defend its borders so it attacks civilians and UN observers. According to the BBC it is almost exclusively civilians who have been killed. Prior to this evening they would not even consider a temporary ceasefire to let in humanitarian aid. They are willing to kill children. The footage I saw today was unbearable. This will not make Israel safer. It is utterly counter-productive. Support for Hezbollah has increased. The whole world is less safe now. If we feel so angry about this imagine how the victims' families must feel.

that was to expat btw.

if the israelis don't want to kill civilians, then why are they using cluster bombs and phosphorous? they have the precision weapons (from the States) they flew them through Glasgow. so why use cluster bombs? unless you want to achieve a climate of terror?

sorry. but the terrorists are indefensible in their tactics. but they are terrorist organisations .

i am INCENSED that anyone that rightly calls attention to the fact that israel is and has been acting in the SAME way as these terrorist organisations is called racist and anti-semitic.

what a piss poor piece of crap of an argument.

and expat i think what i'm feeling is righteous anger and abject sadness that WE as a nation (that is britain) are standing by, not only standing by, but condoning with out alliance with the US position this behaviour in an ally.

it is fucked.

lisalisa, again we go back to the past and our differring views on how Israel came into being. The way I see it, Palestinians had their land taken from them by force so I can understand why they might be angry and unwilling to co-operate.
If somone kicked me out of my house I would not have a good opinion of them.

sorry so angry can't type, that would be our ally not out ally!

the point is that israel have been using this tactic for a very very long time. and it has achieved nothing at all. it has made israel far far less safe. so even if you ignore all of the politics from a pragmatic point of view, it is NOT working.

what has just happend at Qana this morning has totally FUCKED the israelis.

hezbollah has won as a result.

sophable I agree with you Britain should not be condoning this behaviour and certainly letting the US have airspace to ship more weapons to Israel is outrageous. At least some people in Scotland protested.

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PS Expat was Tommy Sheridan there??? at Prestwick today

I am not a Jew. I am not a Muslim. I am not a Christian. I have not been to Israel or any part of the Middle East.

I do not know what the solution is to the conflict there, nor am I clever enough to even consider one.

But I have read every one of these posts and I will say this before I parp myself off this thread b/c, like lisalisa, I use it for a parenting and to have a laugh and hopefully give and take support and help for other mothers.

I have NEVER read so many racist, anti-semetic, anti-Catholic and other, terrible, awful, hurtful and hateful views about entire groups of people as I have read here.

It's saddening at the very least.

Peace begins at home. So instead of slinging hatred at others, I'll take this thread, and others like it, as a sign that that's what I need to work on personally.

That's one thing we can ALL do.

And it's a hell of a lot more effective then arguing.

but lisalisa as someone that is half polish with jewish ancestry on one side, and with a vietnamese father (another conflict where civilians were bombed to shit to no effect) born in france and raised in london i feel that i am in a position to comment rationally.

what israel is and has been doing (and largely being ignored in doing by the western world) is immoral, illegal and has to stop.

ohmygod expat. WHY is criticism of the israeli government anti anything other than the israeli government's policies????