Child taken by from womb by forced C/S for social services! II

[saragossa2010]

As the other is full.
There are far too many cases where the authorities rush to remove children and do not give both parents and wider family a say. Adoption is rushed through.
The fact a senior family judge is insisting he is involved in the rest of this case is a good thing and the more cases like this which receive publicity the better.

The point is it is like justice in China and Russia. If it's secret then those involved cannot justify themselves. If we have more in the public domain that is a greater good than any risk from disclosure to the children and parents involved. it is why open justice and published judgments and rights for all those involved in child disputes to use twitter, blogs and emails and no stifling of free speech.

Thankfully things are all moving this way and we lucky to have people like JM and C Booker to give publicity to the issues which need much wider debate. I would imagine most social workers and lawyers involved in this area are very happy that the issues get more public debate not less. Most professions would.

From the original case that sparked the debate some people said earlier that if the child had gone back to Italy they would have most likely been placed for adoption anyway.

But wouldn't that have been much better? If the child has two Italian sisters and Italian grandparents then perhaps when she is older she will want to make contact with them. If she is adopted in England she won't even be able to speak the language.

Also I was wondering in general about the idea that if you have manic depressive episodes you can't be an effective parent and that even if your condition is currently under control the idea that it may return in the future is enough to prevent you from bringing up your child.

My late mum was a social worker for 40 years from the 60s through to the late 90s. She held quite strong views that towards the later part of her career she felt that parents (particularly those with addictions) were given too many chances and that their behavior led their children to be permanently damaged.

However she also felt that one of her big success stories had been supporting a mother with manic depression by providing emergency foster care to her children when she had a breakdown. Her viewpoint was that this lady had a normal personality and when well was a very good parent. The children were therefore able to have a good relationship with her and were able to understand that she was ill and once she got better they would go home.

Madame! You got tweeted by Carl Gardner. He liked your Poirot remark.

really? yeah! any links? ahem.

@Spero I got an email but it wasn't that exciting lol

@PostNomore There are two threads, each of 1000 posts. I think in the middle of those posts you can find the necessary info.

Following the Italian law, adoption is possible only after the child has no contact with any relative anymore and he/she is placed into adoption. If the parent/s give their permission to be contacted, when they're over 25 they can. Once placed in adoption, the child has NO contact with anyone of the original family. Who told you differently?

[coughs] twitter.com/carlgardner/status/408651255196557313/photo/1

Right read it now. Shame on MNHQ for deleting it.

JH - Answer the questions or depart. If you do not we will take your lack of response as an admission that you support the repellent views of Ian Joseph but are too afraid to put it in writing on here.

And no more BS about being 'too busy' to answer specifics considering the amount of tax payer funded time you have wasted on here. A few more of our hard earned £££ spent on your time providing an honest response- well we'll live with that.

Non response is tantamount to an endorsement.

Plain enough?

The thread hasn't gone pouf. I have it all prior to all deletions. Just in case any interested parties would like it.

I'd be interested to know the opinions of JH and IJ on a bit of advice given by someone who appears to share views with the two of them.

Picture a family, mum and dad both long term sufferers of quite severe mental health problems, they have a small child, a baby in fact - not even crawling. The pregnancy was hard on the both of them physically and mentally, the birth also very difficult. As a result both parents are drained and struggling, between them they are just about managing to fulfil the baby's day to day needs, but their own have fallen by the wayside and there is no way on earth they are capable of managing even the most basic of household chores. As a result the only safe spaces in their home are a small square on the floor where the baby is allowed to roll about and the crib where the baby sleeps. The very moment the baby learns to crawl there will be very real physical risks to it. The mother has deteriorated so badly that she's suicidal (got as far as lining some pills up) and been put under the care of an emergency mental health team.

She mentions to the mental health professional that she's thinking of asking for external/professional help in order to try and get out of this hole before it gets any worse and is advised not to ask for that help as it "will be reported back to SS, who will remove the baby".

Sound like sensible advice there? Or is there maybe another "professional" who is proving a risk to the vulnerable family?

I must not give away too many details on a public internet forum as it isn't my story to tell but I have an Italian friend who was adopted. Her adoptive parents (who sound generous and amazing in every way) regularly took her to meet her siblings who had been adopted by another family. When she was grown up (but well under 25) they bought her a plane ticket so that she could visit her birth mother in her country of origin.

Maybe her adoptive parents just chose to ignore the regulations.

Anyway even if this child didn't make contact with her sisters and other extended family until she was 25 would it not be better that she had been brought up in Italy speaking Italian so that she was able to do this later if she wanted to?

I am in total agreement with the points that Spero makes in her post 20.29 about what is needed to improve LA Children's Services. Of course people need life experience to enable them to "get alongside" service users and especially in relation to child protection. I didn't qualify as a social worker until I was 38 and had a great deal of life experience behind me and yet I still had something of a baptism of fire in working with some of the most disadvantaged and marginalised people in our society.

I worked with many young mothers who were emotionally immature, had endured troubled childhoods, had no family support, financial difficulties etc., and had no chance whatsoever of providing "good enough" care to their children. I always found that so long as I was "straight" with them and never judged them as people, they co-operated with me. I met many young men who were usually the perpetrators of violence to their children or step children, who had themselves experienced harsh treatment in their own childhood and thus had no model of "good enough" parenting.

Children's Services nationally are now in a very poor state, where they cannot recruit and retain experienced social workers to their safeguarding teams. They are battling against a coalition (of which JH is a part) who are intent on slashing the budgets with an agenda of privatising all public services. The irony of all this talk of "snatched" children is that children are going to be left in unsafe homes because LAs don't have the funding to care for them if they make application to the courts to remove them. The leader of BCC actually admitted recently that they Children's Services were not in a position to safeguard all the children of Birmingham.

JH has been asked again and again on this thread why he isn't campaigning for improvement in child protection in the city of Birmingham and raising this issue in parliament. I think most of us know that this is not an area that holds any interest to him, as he is hell bent on peddling his conspiracy theory.

Right - I will ask again, as has Maryz who is making her 2nd attempt to get a response from you in relation to Ian Jacob's "advice" to parents, which I think all of us on this thread find shocking - beyond shocking - it is outrageous. What we want to know is do you agree with this advice as relayed by Maryz* on this thread or do you* not

Let me make it easy for you. You simply have to type in the small white square below one of the following:

1. Yes I agree with the advice that Ian Jacob's gives to parents as relayed on this thread OR:
2. No I am not in agreement with this advice

Can you manage that?

@MadameDefarge You go girl! :)

Has anyone seen JH's where he admits that the lady knew about the now-not-so-forced c-section?
I can't take a picture with my laptop so I'll copy and paste:

There was a forced Caesarean and I have spoken to the mother who made the decision for good reasons before she lost capacity.
I know more than mostyn, because unlike him I have spoken to the mother and understand her reasoning fir her decision.

He knows everything. Giant LOL.

@Mignonette you may want to send to yourself the whole thread.. because we're at 900 posts already......

Goodnight ladies :)

To advise someone not to seek help when they clearly need it is the worst possible advice.

Because when things eventually fall apart - as they will because you are not getting any help- you will be accused of not merely causing harm to your child but lacking insight and in denial as well.

Scaring people away from seeking help is one of the worst consequences of the behaviour of JH and friends.

I am personally affronted by the heavy handed deletions of my posts here.

i do my best to remain within guidelines.

I have not ever been personally offensive to posters. Only to their opinions. Maybe something for Amy@MNHQ to understand.

And also to be deleted for so many posts, without even one email from MNHQ. I'm sorry. This is not the MN I am used to.

@Postnomore
Not sure, but the requirement should be valid only for Italian adoptions. It also makes sense because to hop on a plane and go to South America than jumping ona train for 100 miles.

Anyway even if this child didn't make contact with her sisters and other extended family until she was 25 would it not be better that she had been brought up in Italy speaking Italian so that she was able to do this later if she wanted to?

And who cares? She's no Italian national. So what if she speaks English... God bless her I should say!
It took 30 odd years to learn Englis properly and I still have an accent! I would have done everything in my power to have been brought up in a bilingual family.. Pfft my father barely spoke Italian.

Isn't it just Spero? It's what makes me so angry. I've seen so many people just get worse and worse without help as they were too scared to seek help in case SS "snatched" their children. And they end up suffering needlessly, as do their children :(

@Postnomore meant to say "to hop on a plane and go to South America is less easy than to jump on a train and visit another place in Italy"

See? My English is completely idiotic. I need to be adopted, now! XD

@MadameDefarge

If it's any consolation, I don't think anybody received emails today. It was a mass deletion of posts. Guess who reported everyone... a name.. man's name... wrecking havoc everywhere.... because their castles of sand and lies are crumbling down....

Va bene, si pronto di mi

the whole story became utter political motivation the day it became clear that the child wat 15 months old

at that point it ceased being about protocols
and about point scoring
by those with too little to say in their own right

I'm nationally known in my field
I use this name here because my (significant) ego is prorperly focused...

Talkinpeace: I'm no expert on criminal legal aid, but my understanding is that these days for a large amount of the work involved, lawyers are paid fixed fees and/or at incredibly low rates. It is absolutely not in their interests to have several adjournments, not least because having to keep travelling back and forth means incurring travel costs that eat further into fees. In many cases barristers at the junior end of the criminal Bar are earning at or below minimum wage levels.

Just C+Ped.

I was even deleted for making a light-hearted comment on my own MH issues.

Shameful.

There is a massive distinction between lawyers paid by the state and those in privately paid and lucrative commercial work.

Family and criminal lawyers have larger proportion of female and black lawyers. We are not part of the Oxbridge elite. We do not benefit from networks of cronies in Parliament and anyone who thinks we do is probably on JH's Christmas card list.

Va bene, si pronto di mi

the whole story became utter political motivation the day it became clear that the child wat 15 months old
at that point it ceased being about protocols
and about point scoring
by those with too little to say in their own right
I'm nationally known in my field
I use this name here because my (significant) ego is prorperly focused...

Superbe way of saying the truth.. bravo!