Child taken by from womb by forced C/S for social services! II

[saragossa2010]

As the other is full.
There are far too many cases where the authorities rush to remove children and do not give both parents and wider family a say. Adoption is rushed through.
The fact a senior family judge is insisting he is involved in the rest of this case is a good thing and the more cases like this which receive publicity the better.

The point is it is like justice in China and Russia. If it's secret then those involved cannot justify themselves. If we have more in the public domain that is a greater good than any risk from disclosure to the children and parents involved. it is why open justice and published judgments and rights for all those involved in child disputes to use twitter, blogs and emails and no stifling of free speech.

Thankfully things are all moving this way and we lucky to have people like JM and C Booker to give publicity to the issues which need much wider debate. I would imagine most social workers and lawyers involved in this area are very happy that the issues get more public debate not less. Most professions would.

I am surprised that anyone who has been involved in mental health care should not be familiar with Lithium.

"And sending children who have presumably known only italy off to USA to a step aunt ?"

She is the aunt of one of the children, she is the sister of that child's father. It would keep all 3 children together.

claw, in all honesty, have you ever witnessed someone having a bi-polar crisis?

Just because someone is willing to have all three children, it does not mean they are fit to have all three children.

'The judge himself said the circumstances of her being in the UK were unclear'

I have searched the judgement for this, can't find it, has anyone got the quote from the judgement?

claw2 , you have , as I'm sure you know left a number of very salient facts out of that list, not least the fact that he mother wanted to go back to Italy.

Because the child isn't with him so he can't take her to Senegal? And it's easier to fight for custody in Italy than Senegal?

He would be mad to try and fight for access from Senegal.

'Just because someone is willing to have all three children, it does not mean they are fit to have all three children.'

But did British SS evaluate her suitability?

It was right at the beginning, Claig.

Claig , it's in paragraph 7.

Claig, the woman in the U S isn't related to this child in any way. How and why should our British SS assess her suitability?

From the judgement, Claig I have seperated out the second sentence which covers this.

7.There had been proceedings in Italy and they were continuing in 2012, the documents show, and the situation when the mother has not taken her medication is that she has had a number of very intrusive paranoid delusions.

In circumstances which are not entirely clear to me, the mother came to the United Kingdom in 2012

and on 13th June 2012 she was detained under section 2 and subsequently section 3 of the Mental Health Act. She was profoundly unwell. She was also of course pregnant with P and an unusual order was made in the Court of Protection on 23rd August 2012 by Mr Justice Mostyn, who apart from giving various directions in relation to the Local Authority and others, gave permission for the birth by way of caesarean section. The Local Authority issued proceedings upon the birth of P , an interim care order was granted and has been renewed ever since.
The District Judge

Thanks, found it

"In circumstances which are not entirely clear to me, the mother came to the United Kingdom in 2012"

Can't understand why such a basic fact would not have been established. According to various newspaper reports, she was here for a course. Presumably the people running the course have records of her attendance and proof of payment etc.

poeple would everyone a favour on this thread if they actually read and fully digested the judgement, then we wouldn't have to go over the basics again and again.

Madame I didn't say I had been involved in mental health care, just that I had experience of mental health. First hand experience ie caring for someone who suffers with severe mental health issues, however no bi polar.

No I have never witnessed someone having a bi polar crisis. Although I have witnessed the person I care for having a mental breakdown, which as I said I suspect isn't the same, maybe similar.

'Claig, the woman in the U S isn't related to this child in any way. How and why should our British SS assess her suitability?'

Because she is related to this girl's sister and she would keep all 3 related children together. An adoption to a British citizen would have no relation at all and would not keep all 3 children together.

The reason the father wouldn't have been able to have been considered is because he doesn't have a secure country of residency.

Should we just ship the tiny baby off to him in Italy and hope that the Italian authorities grant him leave. What if he got his daughter and then Italy told him he was being deported...Do you have any idea why he left Senegal, does he have a home there now, family, a job, any means at all to support himself let alone a baby.

The Aunt in America cannot be considered as a kinship carer, as she is not related to the child.

newspapers sometimes get things wrong, as we have seen in this case.

First of all it was evil Children's services demanding a forced c-section.

oops, no it wasn't. It was her doctors, as was contented from the very beginning by many on the other thread.

So that leaves us with a new born baby and a very ill mother and a LA with legal responsibility to care for the child within the remit of the Children's Act.

which they then proceed to do.

Mother fails to convince judge she is in position to care for baby in future adequately, due to a lot of information provided by the Italian medics and SS.

Judge really sorry, but has to make judgement for the best interests of the baby in these circumstances.

Until you have seen someone frothing at the mouth, with the strength of several men, trying to throw themselves under a bus, you really can't comment on what a pyschotic break might look like.

Good point Jacqueline about the father and no secure country of residence.

Also I see that there was no representation by the aunt at the proceedings so that course of action would be moot.

Genuine question - Would someone experiencing a full-blown bi-polar episode that necessitated her admission to a psychiatric hospital be caable of making a phone call to the Police, in a foreign county?

I get the impression that the father was an immigrant to Italy and did not have the EU citizenship (or possibly the means) necessary to travel to the UK.

Reading the judgement it seems that the decision was based on the possibility that the woman may experience a future episode.

But I was right in stating that there was almost indecent haste in deporting her to Italy - and it does say'deported'.

Claig, keeping all three children together in the care of the US woman would entail taking the older two from the home where they have been settled for almost 3 years. How would that conceivably be a good idea? And how could the British court make it happen, given that they have no jurisdiction over the older children?

she did not phone the police, the police were called by the airport staff. she was on the phone to her mother, who then proceeded to explain her daughter's mental health issues.

She was not deported to Italy. She left, with an escort, whose identity and agency remains unknown. She also wanted to leave. and by doing so leaving her baby.

Do keep up.

Tiger Lily Yates/Hutchence?