How girls and women dress in western countries *MNHQ adding content warning for SA as requested*

[Hadmysay]

It's an interesting conversation

www.tiktok.com/@danielle90sbaby/video/7501747121238936854

www.tiktok.com/@meetthealis/video/7503903907920317718. Is this unfeminist to feel like this or do they have a point?

Source?

I am with you OP.

I am sorry that people can’t see that the way they’re dressing is appealing to the male gaze, and that’s likely why they truly feel good in it as it garners attention. As soon as it’s the wrong attention - oh nooo, no accountability.

But I’ll be called a victim blamer or a misogynist for views like this.

btw, I am aware rape and murder will happen regardless of the way someone dresses (unfortunately). The causes of such sexual abuse is complex and multi factorial, but I refuse to feed into a system where I’m dressing in a way that perpetuates my own oppression tbh.

by saying we should be free to wear whatever we like is almost akin to me saying I should be free to walk through the ghettos or favelas late at night untouched, but it’s very naive and it’s not very realistic. At some point you do have to take accountability for your decisions and remember that we don’t live in a safe world and there are systems that operate around us out of our control. I for one as a young woman won’t be travelling late at night dressed scantily on my own on the London Underground - hell, I wouldn’t be doing that anyway. It’s a shame I can’t yes, but until attitudes towards women and transport becomes safer (which take a very, very, very long time) I’m not doing that and I would never recommend another female puts themselves in that situation either.

I feel a lot of people are being idealistic on this thread without remembering the realities.

The difference is, no one is forcing you to, whereas OP would happily force (by law) women and children to dress the way she wants, enforced segregation etc.

Oh right - I may have missed this in the thread then. No, I don’t agree with enforcing that, no. I just think there needs to be better education on the risks / safety etc. so people can make more informed decisions.

I thought so. I knew the unhealthy behaviour you were referring to would not include men perving over women and children or paedophilia. For you, unhealthy behaviour is women's clothes and not the perpetrators of sexual assault.

You have the view that 'boys will be boys' and it's not unhealthy to rape, that's perfectly natural. It's not unhealthy to objectify, dehumanise, attack and commit criminal behaviour.

It's not unhealthy to dictate what half the population can do and wear, to brutalise, arrest, torture, kill because of 'purity'. It's not unhealthy to control and deny a woman self determination - this is healthy behaviour.

@RowsOfFlowers

I’ve found OP’s comments for you.

*Well for a start I would seperate the genders at school. Girls go to girls schools,boys go to boys.
Too much testosterone,half nakedness and hormones.
There was a study done last year that said that the biggest victims of rape were 14 year old girls. Mostly committed by their male peers.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/09/20/14-year-old-girls-most-common-group-report-rape/
I would also have women only carriages on trains and tubes. Here's a video on them.
https://www.tiktok.com/@danawang/video/7387355882255928594
In big restaraunt chains I would make it law that they have to have women only seating area.
I went to a Somalian restaraunt last month and they had this. Women had their own seperate room where they ate.
Some of the government based better gyms I would make women only as well

Definitely no flogging.
Fines and imprisonment I would do.
We need to move forward and stop this nonsense.
We've had our fun oversexualizing ourselves and objectifying the female body now we have to say enough is enough. We need to bring back decency. We can't carry on like this*

You should know who you are agreeing with, and what you are agreeing to.

A conversation about fashion trends (especially for girls) and the sexism of the industry can definitely be had, and are often had on this board.

Try reading your own thread.

Could you provide evidence of this please? That rape and sexual assault are lower in Kuwait and Qatar.

This is what we in the biz know as 'a false dichotomy'. It is used by people who don't have a sensible argument to make.

Women aren't brainwashed into thinking they have to dress a certain way. They are, and should continue to be, free to dress however they want - whether that be revealing or otherwise. Some women enjoy wearing simpy things on a night out, others don't. There's nothing brainwashed about that - it is called freedom. You want to take that away.

Can we have an apology for your false statement about people not posting evidence in opposition of your beliefs?

Yeah - okay, point taken.

I disagree with segregation. It’s bringing back memories of racist segregation!

In relation to the education system and schools - better education on behaviour and standards in ALL schools both mixed and same sex.

Proper education on HEALTHY relationships and interactions with one another. As modelled by teachers too (no bloody teachers doing ONLYFANS ffs).

Punishment and further education to those who present with inappropriate behaviour. Any male (or female actually) who goes on to sexually assault or rape someone is punished. Unacceptable.

I would ban phones in schools tbh. Like other countries have done. I think one of the most damaging aspects of modern society has unfortunately been social media. Teens and children have access to over sexualised content from too young an age and without any supervision or guidance, therefore I think it’s shaping and normalising in a damaging fashion.

We need to learn how to live with each other in society in a healthy way. I don’t think segregation is the answer at all, either in schools, restaurants or public transport.

Not sure what is meant by flogging, does that mean solicitation?

My biggest fear in boys and men is incel culture and their damaging views on women which I think perpetuates sexist beliefs and rape culture.

I want better for the males and females in our society.

No, don't be lazy. You asked for evidence, I told you it was there in the first three pages of this thread. There's probably more, I left it at that. Is your scrolling hand busy from doing other things so now you can't click and look back to the start of this thread?

Thanks @WhenYouSayNothingAtAll for highlighting x

,the fact that the majority of secondary school children in this country are wearing super short miniskirts to school,

You keep trotting this one out without evidencing it. As I've said before - I live close to a large secondary school. Pupils walk by my house every day.And the majoroty - I'd say 90% - of the girls are wearing trousers. So without evidence from you (again - not randoms from Tik Tok) - I'm going to call bullshit on this statement.

@Hadmysay

Can you explain why Kuwait is ranked 130 out of 146 countries in the world in the Global Gender Gap Report, making it one of the most unequal countries in the world for women?

Flogging is what is done in places like Afghanistan and many Middle Eastern countries - it means whipping. Women get whipped. In public. For not wearing their head covering right, or for getting raped (yes, because it's considered adultery!).

This culture is what OP aspires to, even if not including the actual violence.

The flogging was in reply of what punishment she’d like if women broke her laws . She said no to flogging (whipping) , but yes to fines and imprisonment.

P.S. Reading the rest of your comment, we agree a lot more than you’d think.

Ah okay, thank you for explaining that!

OP is quite obviously from a different culture it would seem.

I do think we need change, but not the drastic changes that OP is suggesting. Soz, OP!

P.S. Reading the rest of your comment, we agree a lot more than you’d think.

Same here. Education is the way to go. I'm on board with restricting smartphones too. Plus putting funding into properly prosecuting rape.

And without wanting to sound smug, this should be a lesson in what people on here are always told: Read The Full Thread before you comment.

I'm so sorry to hear that your experience of men has been so negative. You say that you have no trauma but you've obviously been surrounded by lots of incredibly misogynistic men and you seem to have reached the conclusion that all men are inevitably like this. It would seem that you have normalised the behaviour of the shitty men around you and extrapolated from that to believe that men are just like that and this can never change. Of course, lots are still like that, but it really isn't as inevitable as you seem to think. Your own experiences are just that... your own experiences.

I've travelled a lot as well, and I've lived in several countries, including one majority Muslim country where it was normal for women to cover up. I always dressed in accordance with the local norms and sadly, it didn't prevent me from being sexually assaulted. I received a lot of support from local women, many of whom told me that they had experienced similar. It was clear that their way of dressing offered them no protection. I did not report the incident and was not encouraged to do so.

My DH comes from a different country, not a Muslim one but one where women tend to dress "modestly" for cultural reasons. Women are certainly not safer in his country than in the west. Quite the contrary, to be honest. Their "modest" dress and relative lack of freedom appears to offer them no protection at all, and I would feel quite unsafe there on my own.

In societies where women are encouraged to dress "modestly" and where their freedom is limited, there tends to be a strong culture of shame around rape and sexual assault because there is still so much victim blaming. It is inevitable that women will feel less empowered to come forward to report their experiences because they know only too well that the finger will be pointed right back at them, and that they will be blamed and shamed for the crimes that were perpetrated against them. So it's hardly surprising that the stats will be lower in some places, but you're kidding yourself if you believe that this means that women are safer in those places. It simply means that they are less likely to seek justice.

Yes education and less excuses.

No boys will be boys.
No he’s being mean to you/poking you/pulling your hair because he likes you.
No “can’t help themselves “.
No “she made me do it”.
No parading women’s underwear in courts.
No “I tripped and fell” being an acceptable defence in court.
No suspended sentences.
No “think about his reputation/future/career”.
No “he’s a family man”.
So many more…

I do agree to be fair.

I think we need to study men a bit more and why they go onto rape and sexual assault. I think that could help with prevention somewhat. I think it’s multi factorial. More women and girls should be encouraged to report and more cases need to go to court so we can look at factors and gather statistics. There are quite a lot of cases where consent is blurred for example. We need to look at the circumstances surrounding cases of sexual abuse.

All this is happening. There are loads of studies , there are plenty of statistics. Pretty grim reading really. Like the US study where a majority of male college students said they would rape someone if there were no consequences. In the same study, a lot of them admitted to sexual assault/rape when it wasn’t worded so explicitly.

There is work being done, there is painfully slow change. It all just gets lost in the cacophony of misogyny , woman blaming and excuses. Men are more than happy to pick up and use those excuses because it excuses their behaviours so much, they can actually be used as a defence in court.

We are trying to change (in decades) attitudes and myths about women that have lasted centuries! Attitudes and myths that still prevail in some parts of the world and that are still passed down (on a lower scale) in others. OP is a prime example of this. No matter how you feel about “personal responsibility “ what messages do you think she sends to young men and women in her life? She’s sadly not a lone voice.

The US has the “grab her by the pussy” man as president. What message does that send to young men?

I agree with everything you have said to be perfectly honest.

Also I hate the grab them by the pussy sorry excuse for a president that the US currently has in power. It’s all backwards bulls””t