How girls and women dress in western countries *MNHQ adding content warning for SA as requested*

[Hadmysay]

It's an interesting conversation

www.tiktok.com/@danielle90sbaby/video/7501747121238936854

www.tiktok.com/@meetthealis/video/7503903907920317718. Is this unfeminist to feel like this or do they have a point?

When saying safe means not being able to wear what we want, a line is crossed. Modesty is an oppressive construct invented by patriarchal males to keep women small and locked away. We make the world safer for women by dealing with men who rape.

This is not to say we should not be careful about drink spiking, minicabs, dates with people we don't know - but when we start having to police our own clothes, that is a step too far - especially since we know that it makes no difference all in terms of our safety from predatory males.

@RowsOfFlowers as I’ll keep saying. It’s not really about the clothes, it’s about what happens when you create laws that only apply to one demographic of people.

It always leads to oppression. If society (or men) can tell women what to wear for their so called safety, what else can they enforce? Marriage? Curfews?

People are only free when they have the right to make the same choices as everyone else. Otherwise they are oppressed.

And my choice is to dress modestly. That doesn’t necessarily mean I’m policing myself… I refuse to cater to the male gaze. I’ll wear what I feel comfortable in. I guess I am also critiquing why women and girls feel the need to dress that way in the first place. I read a fantastic article yesterday which was essentially a feminist stance on the social conditioning of women’s appearance…

You wearing what you want is absolutely fine.

You judging what other women wear and essentially thinking that in doing so, they are in part responsible if they get raped is not fine.

Feminism has many voices. You agree with just one of them. Others say very different things.

People use clothes to express themselves in a variety of ways.

The important words you used were ‘my choice.’

You can disapprove as much as you like but if you care about women, then you should always advocate for a woman’s right to choose.

I'm with you there, though I'm not trying for modesty, but for comfort and utlity. I'm for no makeup, usually loose clothing (except for workout clothes.) I never wear heels and wear dresses or skirts only once in a blue moon. It's freeing to not give a shit what men think about how you look. The thing is, if you are dressing modestly just out of a refusal to cater to the male gaze, then IMO it's really not that different to dressing to please men. You are still letting male behaviour influence your choice of attire. What do you think?

Not necessarily as I am prioritising what I feel comfortable in. I think we need to deeply reflect on the clothing that we wear and why we feel good in it - I think it’s quite unconscious pleasing towards men.

That may be true for you, but it is not necessarily true for all women. I mean for a start, some women may dress to please women. They're called lesbians.

What we need to do is STOP judging our fellow women for what they are wearing, because by doing so we are playing into the hands of the patriarchy.

I'm afraid there seem to be two realities going on here. One is real and backed up by evidence

What evidence?
None of you have posted any.

Do you extend your modest dressing requirements to hair covering as well?

No just don't dress looking like a woman who stands on the street corner of a red light district.
It's not hard

If you tell me the countries you're talking about, we'll remedy that.

O please how long have we been saying change has been happening. Again it's one step forward two steps back.
Attitudes will never change. Especially If you keep promoting unhealthy lifestyle choices that promotes debauchery.

Well, that's a lie. I have just scrolled through the first three pages of this thread and there are three posts there with actual evidence; that is, not recorded convos from TikTok. So you have now been shown to lie.

Hang on a minute where have I condoned how these men are and how they think.
I'm telling you how they are.
If your too stupid to understand how these men are or just don't care then that's on you.
But as I keep saying. Carry on.
Nothing will change

It does but they wont care.
All they care about is having the right to engage in unhealthy behaviour no matter how much damage it causes

What unhealthy behaviour?

This is why as I've got older and wiser I have no problem with being called a victim blamer if calling a spade a spade is victim blaming then I am a victim blamer
If saying women shouldnt be appeasing to the male gaze and oversexualizing themselves then again I am a victim blamer. We need to make change.
We can't go on like this

No, you're not telling us how they are, you're repeating their victim blaming statements as if they were true. Which they are not.

Women and girls don't get raped because of how they dress. They get raped because misogynistic men feel entitled to rape them. People like you merely help to perpetuate that misplaced sense of entitlement by shifting the blame to their victims.

It's shameful but you won't understand unless you go and get yourself some proper therapy. I am simultaneously infuriated by your disgusting posts while also feeling deeply sorry for you because I have no idea what has happened to you to make your thinking so horribly warped.

We all get older. Not all of us get wiser.

Are you going to apologise for claiming that nobody has posted actual evidence to support the concept that rape is caused by men, not by clothes? Because that claim was a lie.

If I robbed a bank, would I be able to blame the bank for having failed to conceal the fact that it was a bank? Would I be able to make the case that there was a big sign outside advertising the fact that it was a bank, so I simply couldn't help myself? Would most people agree that the bank was asking for it?

Or might I reasonably be expected to exercise some self control and understand that I couldn't simply go and help myself to money which I wasn't entitled to?

do you genuinely think that women in cultures where they are made to fully cover up are raped and sexually abused less? REALLY?

Actually what I care is men not being allowed, supported and encouraged (by people like you) to use every rape myth and bollocks excuse under the sun to justify their abuse. What I care is about children not growing up feeling shame and guilt and thinking they somehow caused their abuse.

You know how I told my mother about my grandfather cornering me in my bedroom? I asked her if I really looked like a slut(for the record i fucking didn’t).Because obviously that was the only explanation. Not him being a filthy, entitled, dirty pervert. Nope, it couldn’t have possibly been him. There must have been something wrong with me.

I grew up with the bs you spouted, that’s how I know it doesn’t work. It doesn’t keep anyone safe. It didn’t keep me safe. It didn’t keep thousands of other women and children safe.

You have yet to explain what these lifestyle choices are, much less established who is promoting them. What exactly do you mean?

If attitudes will never change what good would changing the way we dress do? You're saying that a woman dressing more modestly would change a man's attitude when he is looking at her. You can't have it both ways.
Basically you're saying men aren't expected to change and won't, but women are expected to change in order to change men. Makes no sense and I don't think you've really thought this through.

Again, say what you mean. What is this alleged unhealthy behaviour?

Where do you get these views from, OP? Is this something you were taught to believe as a child? Is it driven by religion? Some kind of trauma?